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  • From: Dieter Brand <diebrand@yahoo.com>
  • To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
  • Subject: Re: [permaculture] Introduction and a question about Swales
  • Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 03:31:57 -0800 (PST)


Jeff,
 
I don’t have any experience with the type of conditions you describe;
however, I have to cope with extreme dry and hot conditions during the
summer.  My overall rainfall is probably above yours, but in a normal year
there is zero rainfall from May trough September with temperatures hitting
the 100 F mark in the July/August period.
 
In the beginning, I did some earthworks but soon switched to zero soil
disturbance.  We have a hillside property with clay soil.  Most of the
topsoil washed away due to plowing by previous owners.  Any soil disturbance
(making swales, ponds, terraces, raised beds, waffle beds, etc. or plowing)
will turn up pure clay from the subsoil and burry the little subsoil there
is.  The clay soil will crack in the sun and dry out rapidly.  Dams made for
artificial lakes will often stay barren for ten years without any vegetation. 
The situation may be different on sandy soil.
 
My strategy has been to improve the soil by keeping it covered at all times
with vegetation and/or mulch, practicing zero soil disturbance and returning
as much organic matter as possible to the soil surface.  A soil covered by
vegetation (e.g., grass sod) will allow water to penetrate and prevent
runoffs even on hillsides. A soil with good structure and high organic
content can store an enormous amount of water for a very long time. 
Therefore, rather than turning part of my land into swales or artificial
lakes that dry out before it gets really dry in the summer, I prefer to see
my entire land as one big water reservoir. The more I improve the soil the
more water it will be able to store.  In the garden, I have been able to
reduce irrigation by about 80% in the last 5 years.
 
Dieter Brand
Portugal


--- On Sun, 12/28/08, Jeff Hine <jhi@post.com> wrote:

From: Jeff Hine <jhi@post.com>
Subject: [permaculture] Introduction and a question about Swales
To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Date: Sunday, December 28, 2008, 10:14 PM

Hi, I am fairly new to the idea of permaculture. I have not taken the
course or read the principal books on the subject. (money problems)
Nevertheless, I have been pouring over everything I can find on the net
and watching various youtube videos. And of course I am blown away by
the work that you all are doing. I feel like I have been standing on the
wrong side of the fence for 25 years of my working career and didn't
even know it for 24. I want over asap!

I live in an area that is considered mountain desert. We receive on the
average 16 inches of precipitation per year with nearly all of it locked
up in snow during December, January, and February. I keep trying to
figure out what permaculture would look like here. I try to imagine how
to use swales to hold onto as much moisture as possible. I know that
even when temperatures are cold a lot of snow is lost to evaporation,
you can see it happen. And then there is wind blowing that moves it
around. Would swales help in a climate like this? And to be specific
about my question, Geoff Lawton describes the swales that they put in
Jordan. He says in the video that the land is dead flat and later says
the swales were put in on contour. What does it mean to put swales on
contour on a flat piece of land? Can you treat a building as a hill and
use that as the contour point? Also, if you know of any resources online
dealing with geography such as where I live could you point me in that
direction?

I feel like I live in a very challenging landscape, yet I know that all
areas are suitable for permaculture design. I am learning and grateful
for all the folks on this list.

-Jeff



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>From jhi@post.com Mon Dec 29 08:12:58 2008
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Thank you very much for your response. Yours as well as the one from
Dick have helped to clarify in my mind the idea of land and its shape.
Obviously water has to go somewhere, and the concept of flat land comes
from the fact that I have always lived in towns where people have worked
very hard to make the land flat. I appreciate your help on understanding
function of swales and pointing me to Brad Landcaster's books. I need
lots of illustrations. Wouldn't it be amazing if there was a central
place where people could study design drawings online? This would be
very helpful to budding pc enthusiasts. -Jeff


L. Santoyo wrote:
> Jeff Hine,
>
> Swales will work where ever there is run-off water. Swales are shallow
> basins (a ditch) and level berm (a long mound). These simple structures are
> primarily used to collect or "harvest" run-off water (best and less
> technical and can cause relatively little damage on slopes less than
> 15degrees). For steeper slopes you can calculate more frequent and lower
> volume structures and/or shorter lengths (ala "boomerangs").
>
> Even on a so called, flat piece of property you can determine slope by
> watching to see which way the water drains off during a rain. A swale would
> then be best placed perpendicular to that run off (basically that would be
> on contour)
>
> The swales act simply to intercept that run-off water and spread it out the
> length of your basin -with the objective to then infiltrate into the soil.
> The level berm ensures that water will spread out evenly in the basin before
> draining, overflowing and/or continuing on downhill...
>
> If the basin and berm were off contour, where the water would flow to a
> lower end -then that would be a drain -not a swale... (you could have a
> drain directing water to an infiltration swale)
>
> In any case -there are, of course, far more examples of swales in action
> than there are on YouTube. Brad Landcaster's books have some good
> illustrations in them for Drylands. Other examples of water harvesting
> include "dish swales" and "waffle gardens" that are great for flatter
> places. see http://www.harvestingrainwater.com/
>
> L. Santoyo
> www.earthflow.com
>
>
>
> On Sun, Dec 28, 2008 at 2:14 PM, Jeff Hine <jhi@post.com> wrote:
>
>
>> Hi, I am fairly new to the idea of permaculture. I have not taken the
>> course or read the principal books on the subject. (money problems)
>> Nevertheless, I have been pouring over everything I can find on the net
>> and watching various youtube videos. And of course I am blown away by
>> the work that you all are doing. I feel like I have been standing on the
>> wrong side of the fence for 25 years of my working career and didn't
>> even know it for 24. I want over asap!
>>
>> I live in an area that is considered mountain desert. We receive on the
>> average 16 inches of precipitation per year with nearly all of it locked
>> up in snow during December, January, and February. I keep trying to
>> figure out what permaculture would look like here. I try to imagine how
>> to use swales to hold onto as much moisture as possible. I know that
>> even when temperatures are cold a lot of snow is lost to evaporation,
>> you can see it happen. And then there is wind blowing that moves it
>> around. Would swales help in a climate like this? And to be specific
>> about my question, Geoff Lawton describes the swales that they put in
>> Jordan. He says in the video that the land is dead flat and later says
>> the swales were put in on contour. What does it mean to put swales on
>> contour on a flat piece of land? Can you treat a building as a hill and
>> use that as the contour point? Also, if you know of any resources online
>> dealing with geography such as where I live could you point me in that
>> direction?
>>
>> I feel like I live in a very challenging landscape, yet I know that all
>> areas are suitable for permaculture design. I am learning and grateful
>> for all the folks on this list.
>>
>> -Jeff
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Be Yourself @ mail.com!
>> Choose From 200 Email Addresses
>> Get a Free Account at www.mail.com
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> permaculture mailing list
>> permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
>> Subscribe or unsubscribe here:
>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
>> Google command to search archives:
>> site:https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture searchstring
>>
>>
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
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>
>
>
>
>
>




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