permaculture

[lbsaltzman@aol.com]

 I have met Lundberg several times and couldn't agree more with what you are 
saying. A lot of what he says is right but it is clouded by doomsday 
predictions and enormous personal anger that weakens the message.


 


 

-----Original Message-----
From: Toby Hemenway <toby@patternliteracy.com>
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Mon, 27 Oct 2008 9:21 am
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Ten unfortunate assumptions of energy addicts










Lundberg gives no references in his original article, and I agree with 
David that he's just making assertions and telling us to believe they 
are facts, and condemns anyone who won't believe him as "blind." 
Although I think we're in for a heap of trouble, energy-wise, it's 
insupportable to make statements like, "2. Petroleum has no substitute" 
since people also said that there were no substitutes for wood, whale 
oil, coal, copper wire, and a hundred other now-replaced commodities. 
It's foolish to claim we know all there is to know. Remember that 
physicists in the 19th century said that all the major discoveries had 
been made. (I'm not saying I know of an oil substitute, just that it's 
dumb to say there can never be one!) 

So he really needs references to back up those claims. However, most of 
them are predictions and guesses, like (paraphrasing) "oil depletion 
will be rapid--those who say it will be gradual are wrong." Hubbert's 
curve looks pretty gradual to me; what's his evidence? His statements 
cannot be proven, but he treats them as the only truth.

Lundberg may be a bright guy, but he come across as a complete asshole: 
shrill, angry, demeaning anyone who disagrees with him, one-sided, 
making unsupported and unsupportable assertions, and offering only 
complaints and no solutions. I've read a few of his pieces, and they all 
seem the same. Even where I agree with him--and I do in many places--I 
wish he wouldn't assume that most everyone else is stupid. I made that 
mistake in a couple of articles I wrote, and I still regret having 
alienated a lot of people who would have been allies. Lundberg is 
alienating a lot of potential supporters (like me and probably David) as 
well. Peak oil needs better spokesmanship than that.

Toby
http://patternliteracy.com



David Travis wrote:
> Dear Keith,
>
> If you don't want people sharing their
> opinions or observations about Lundberg's articles, then I'd highly
> recommend keeping them to yourself. Posting them to a public mailing
> list might give people the mistaken idea that they're being encouraged
> to communicate ideas of their own.
>
> - David
>
>
>
>   
>> Message: 2
>> Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2008 21:41:01 -0400
>> From: Keith Johnson <keithdj@mindspring.com>
>> Subject: Re: [permaculture] Ten unfortunate assumptions of energy
>>  addicts
>> To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
>> Message-ID: <4903CAAD.2020701@mindspring.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>>
>> Actually he does but you'd have to read more of his site and not just a 
>> few paragraphs out of context.
>>
>> Archives 
>> <http://culturechange.org/cms/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=228&Itemid=56>
>>
>> I'm sure Jan would be happy to provide the references to which you refer 
>> if you were to contact him 
>> <http://culturechange.org/cms/index.php?option=com_contact&Itemid=3> 
>> instead of just complaining in public forums.
>>
>>     "Jan C. Lundberg, a national speaker, writer and publisher, is best
>>     known for running what was widely considered "the bible of the oil
>>     industry," Lundberg Survey Inc. In 1979 the firm predicted the
>>     Second Oil Shock. After 14 years there, he left for-profit work to
>>     found the nonprofit Sustainable Energy Institute, now Culture
>>     Change. For almost twenty years he has studied peak oil, energy
>>     alternatives, and conservation based primarily on grassroots change
>>     in lifestyle. He has assisted clients interested in the impacts of
>>     peak oil and climate change on material security and community
>>     connection. Educated in Europe and on the high seas, he has pursued
>>     an adventure called a career that is still evolving."
>>
>>
>> David Travis wrote:
>>     
>>>> Ten unfortunate assumptions of energy addicts
>>>> Written by Jan Lundberg
>>>>
>>>> Our collective problem as we see the world sputter out of control for 
>>>> the worse (before it gets better) is largely that so many loud mouths 
>>>> claim to know what IS happening here. Honest and wise assessments of 
>>>> what all is really going on are hard to come by, partly because the 
>>>> corporate media suppress independent voices who may have the background 
>>>> and objectivity to offer clarity.
>>>>     
>>>>         
>>> [snip...]
>>>
>>>
>>> Mr. Lundberg's "background and objectivity" evidently doesn't involve the 
use of references or sources for any of his claims.
>>>       
>> -- 
>> Keith Johnson
>> "Be fruitful and mulch apply."
>> Permaculture Activist Magazine
>> PO Box 5516, Bloomington, IN 47407
>> (812) 335-0383
>> http://www.permacultureactivist.net
>>     
>
>
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