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Re: [permaculture] permaculture Digest, Vol 67, Issue 25
- From: "Bryce Ruddock" <bruddockjr@wi.rr.com>
- To: <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
- Subject: Re: [permaculture] permaculture Digest, Vol 67, Issue 25
- Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2008 21:01:04 -0500
Regarding longevity of black locust wood see the following links:http://www.hungarobinia.hu/az_akac/index_en.php
,http://www.blacklocust.org/blidata/locust/robiniapseudo.html,
http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=3388348.
If any of these do not give a result then google durability of black locust and follow the trail from there . The first 2 links are within the first 3 pages.
The compounds responsible for the durability seem to be the tannins and robinetins found in the wood.
Bryce Ruddock
----- Original Message ----- From: <permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org>
To: <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2008 12:21 PM
Subject: permaculture Digest, Vol 67, Issue 25
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Today's Topics:
1. Compost Celebration in Santa Fe, 9/13-14 (Woody Wodraska)
2. what makes black locust last so long? (paul wheaton)
3. Re: what makes black locust last so long? (Niels Corfield)
4. Re: what makes black locust last so long? (maria morehead)
5. Re: what makes black locust last so long? (Margaret L. Wilson)
6. Re: what makes black locust last so long? (jacque greenleaf)
7. Re: what makes black locust last so long? (Jay Woods)
8. Re: what makes black locust last so long? (paul wheaton)
9. Re: what makes black locust last so long?
(Jim Powell (Madison Environmental Justice Organization))
10. Re: what makes black locust last so long? (paul wheaton)
11. Re: what makes black locust last so long? (Jay Woods)
12. Re: what makes black locust last so long? (lbsaltzman@aol.com)
13. Re: what makes black locust last so long? (Toby Hemenway)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2008 13:36:12 -0700
From: Woody Wodraska <wodraska@mac.com>
Subject: [permaculture] Compost Celebration in Santa Fe, 9/13-14
To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Message-ID: <992E8D87-0164-4CC9-B8CF-892D61268C8F@mac.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed
The Single Most Important Thing
To Know About Gardening Is
How To Make Good Compost In days gone by a family's wealth was
measured by the size of their compost pile. The answer to most garden
questions is living compost. With compost, you are prepared to
co-create with the spirit world a
wonderful garden. Soil fertility is the key to serving
future generations and is the foundation of garden or civilization,
for that matter.
Good, lively compost
*Provides living organisms to work and nourish the soil: worms and
microlife by the billions;
*Brings light and air to tight clay soils;
*Brings character and tilth to loose, sandy soils;
*Adds nutrients in usable form for the plants;
*Holds moisture.
BETTER THAN IMAGINED...A CONSCIOUS COMPOST CELEBRATION with
Biodynamic Compostmeister Barbara M V Scott MSc
Sept. 13 (10am-4pm) and Sept. 14 (10am-2pm)
Santa Fe, NM The Fairgrounds
Master Gardener Site [next to Botanical Garden Plant Sale]
Contact: Steven McFadden 505-428-8444 or Woody Wodraska 603-588-2302
Woody Wodraska
wodraska@mac.com
Free chapters from
"Deep Gardening: Soul Lessons from 17 Gardens" at
http://www.soulmedicinejourney.com/Book.html
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2008 10:59:21 -0700
From: "paul wheaton" <paul@richsoil.com>
Subject: [permaculture] what makes black locust last so long?
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID:
<22d4eb790808251059r4555a9dhc046d8fa01a6f3ca@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
I have asked this question about 20 times in all sorts of different
places. Any time anybody seems like they might possibly know ...
So I ask it again here.
In case nobody knows, I hope that somebody might carry this question
with them and maybe some day spot an answer.
So we know that black locust wood lasts a long time. Old time farmers
would call it "stone wood" claiming that it would last longer than
stones when used as fence posts.
Why? Does it have some anti-fungal property? Anti-microbial? I've
heard some people say something about it could be because it is just
so dense - but that doesn't seem right either. Other dense woods seem
to decompose fairly rapidly.
Would it be less than wise to use black locust as a garden border
because of some alelopathic effect as it decomposes? Or would it
somehow make an excellent garden border because it will last 30 years,
and what little of it that does rot will pass on the n-fixing it did
when it was alive.
I've been trying to get an answer to this question for three years ...
maybe I'm asking it wrong, or researching it wrong ... or something
...
Help!
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2008 19:33:25 +0100
From: Niels Corfield <mudguard@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] what makes black locust last so long?
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <48B2FAF5.2000108@gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
My money's on chemicals. It'll have to be a high resin content reckon.
I recently came 3rd in a head-to-head of the best firewoods and that was
behind a couple of oaks that like grow 5-times slower!
So that may well point to density also.
I don't think it's allelopathic, that's not listed anywhere. It's not an
aromatic wood also, like cedar. But basically it's not treated, so I
think it'll be great as a border. After all you wouldn't think twice
about putting untreated oak in that position, so why black locust.
I think walnut which is known for it's allelopathy is still fine for
pole wood etc. Though way too high value for that application but safe
for plants as a timber.
Why not direct your question directly to Geoff Lawton, or PRI forum, or
in the UK: Phil Corbett (Cool Temperate) or Martin Crawford (ART).
You could ask Elaine Ingham also.
My feeling though is it's safe to use in that application. Especially as
treated timber/reclaimed rail sleepers are commonly used for raised
beds, which /do/ leach their toxins into the soil. This one's gotta be
better.
Just wish I had a nice stand of it nearby for a similar application.
BTW, love that tree.
Cheers,
Niels
My Bookmarks:
http://del.icio.us/entrailer
My Pics and Projects:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/nielscorfield/
http://picasaweb.google.com/mudguard
Groups I Contribute to:
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/polyculturepeople/
http://uk.groups.yahoo.com/group/leeds_permaculture_network/?yguid=243022692
http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/scythe
paul wheaton wrote:
I have asked this question about 20 times in all sorts of different
places. Any time anybody seems like they might possibly know ...
So I ask it again here.
In case nobody knows, I hope that somebody might carry this question
with them and maybe some day spot an answer.
So we know that black locust wood lasts a long time. Old time farmers
would call it "stone wood" claiming that it would last longer than
stones when used as fence posts.
Why? Does it have some anti-fungal property? Anti-microbial? I've
heard some people say something about it could be because it is just
so dense - but that doesn't seem right either. Other dense woods seem
to decompose fairly rapidly.
Would it be less than wise to use black locust as a garden border
because of some alelopathic effect as it decomposes? Or would it
somehow make an excellent garden border because it will last 30 years,
and what little of it that does rot will pass on the n-fixing it did
when it was alive.
I've been trying to get an answer to this question for three years ...
maybe I'm asking it wrong, or researching it wrong ... or something
...
Help!
_______________________________________________
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permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
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http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
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------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2008 11:51:16 -0700
From: "maria morehead" <spiralmother@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] what makes black locust last so long?
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID:
<5a4c19e50808251151q2e65188cl8ff7148c6684ca5a@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
and you have a case study in place at giovanni's....
On 8/25/08, paul wheaton <paul@richsoil.com> wrote:
I have asked this question about 20 times in all sorts of different
places. Any time anybody seems like they might possibly know ...
So I ask it again here.
In case nobody knows, I hope that somebody might carry this question
with them and maybe some day spot an answer.
So we know that black locust wood lasts a long time. Old time farmers
would call it "stone wood" claiming that it would last longer than
stones when used as fence posts.
Why? Does it have some anti-fungal property? Anti-microbial? I've
heard some people say something about it could be because it is just
so dense - but that doesn't seem right either. Other dense woods seem
to decompose fairly rapidly.
Would it be less than wise to use black locust as a garden border
because of some alelopathic effect as it decomposes? Or would it
somehow make an excellent garden border because it will last 30 years,
and what little of it that does rot will pass on the n-fixing it did
when it was alive.
I've been trying to get an answer to this question for three years ...
maybe I'm asking it wrong, or researching it wrong ... or something
...
Help!
_______________________________________________
permaculture mailing list
permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Subscribe or unsubscribe here:
http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
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--
Supporting vibrant health in my community by providing education, nutrition,
herbal connection and ritual through grateful interaction with Gaia.
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2008 12:02:11 -0700
From: "Margaret L. Wilson" <booldawgs@frontiernet.net>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] what makes black locust last so long?
To: "permaculture" <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <424200B4BAC54B0C895EB67C6EE4BB87@Marge>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
reply-type=original
I have black locust taking over my yard. It has sprung up under the house,
invaded water, leach and septic lines. It was in the yard when we bought
the property. I would be careful planting it as a border.
Margaret
http://farfarawayfarm.blogspot.com/
----- Original Message ----- From: "paul wheaton" <paul@richsoil.com>
To: "permaculture" <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Monday, August 25, 2008 10:59 AM
Subject: [permaculture] what makes black locust last so long?
I have asked this question about 20 times in all sorts of different
places. Any time anybody seems like they might possibly know ...
So I ask it again here.
In case nobody knows, I hope that somebody might carry this question
with them and maybe some day spot an answer.
So we know that black locust wood lasts a long time. Old time farmers
would call it "stone wood" claiming that it would last longer than
stones when used as fence posts.
Why? Does it have some anti-fungal property? Anti-microbial? I've
heard some people say something about it could be because it is just
so dense - but that doesn't seem right either. Other dense woods seem
to decompose fairly rapidly.
Would it be less than wise to use black locust as a garden border
because of some alelopathic effect as it decomposes? Or would it
somehow make an excellent garden border because it will last 30 years,
and what little of it that does rot will pass on the n-fixing it did
when it was alive.
I've been trying to get an answer to this question for three years ...
maybe I'm asking it wrong, or researching it wrong ... or something
...
Help!
_______________________________________________
permaculture mailing list
permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Subscribe or unsubscribe here:
http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
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------------------------------
Message: 6
Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2008 12:34:41 -0700 (PDT)
From: jacque greenleaf <jacque_greenleaf@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] what makes black locust last so long?
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <830872.22104.qm@web30607.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
So that adds another question to this topic - what makes it sprout like mad? In a nearby town there's a house and lot that look like something in a horror movie because of the intensive sprouting. Some of these sprouts are over 20 feet high, and the house is uninhabitable. Yet there are many perfectly behaved black locust trees in that same neighborhood.
--- On Mon, 8/25/08, Margaret L. Wilson <booldawgs@frontiernet.net> wrote:
From: Margaret L. Wilson <booldawgs@frontiernet.net>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] what makes black locust last so long?
To: "permaculture" <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Date: Monday, August 25, 2008, 12:02 PM
I have black locust taking over my yard. It has sprung up under the house,
invaded water, leach and septic lines. It was in the yard when we bought
the property. I would be careful planting it as a border.
Margaret
http://farfarawayfarm.blogspot.com/
----- Original Message ----- From: "paul wheaton" <paul@richsoil.com>
To: "permaculture" <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Monday, August 25, 2008 10:59 AM
Subject: [permaculture] what makes black locust last so long?
I have asked this question about 20 times in all sorts of differentthan
places. Any time anybody seems like they might possibly know ...
So I ask it again here.
In case nobody knows, I hope that somebody might carry this question
with them and maybe some day spot an answer.
So we know that black locust wood lasts a long time. Old time farmers
would call it "stone wood" claiming that it would last longer
stones when used as fence posts.
Why? Does it have some anti-fungal property? Anti-microbial? I've
heard some people say something about it could be because it is just
so dense - but that doesn't seem right either. Other dense woods seem
to decompose fairly rapidly.
Would it be less than wise to use black locust as a garden border
because of some alelopathic effect as it decomposes? Or would it
somehow make an excellent garden border because it will last 30 years,
and what little of it that does rot will pass on the n-fixing it did
when it was alive.
I've been trying to get an answer to this question for three years ...
maybe I'm asking it wrong, or researching it wrong ... or something
...
Help!
_______________________________________________
permaculture mailing list
permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Subscribe or unsubscribe here:
http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
Google command to search archives:
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_______________________________________________
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------------------------------
Message: 7
Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2008 18:56:19 -0500
From: Jay Woods <woodsjay@cox.net>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] what makes black locust last so long?
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <200808251856.19463.woodsjay@cox.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
http://www.lib.ncsu.edu/theses/available/etd-11242003-154755/unrestricted/etd.pdf
2.4 Secondary Metabolites of Black Locust and Effect on Animals
As mentioned previously, the heartwood of BL is primarily used for fence
posts,
poles, railroad ties, and mine timbers and can endure for over 100 years in
the soil. Its
remarkable decay resistance is due to high flavonoid concentrations (6% of dry
weight),
specifically the constituents, robtin (15,000 ppm), robinetin (20,000 to
80,000 ppm) and
dihydrorobinetin (53,000 to 176,000 ppm)(Smith et al., 1989). Other,
flavonoids present in
the heartwood are butein, butin, fisetin, fustin, and liquiritigenin (Duke,
2000)
On Monday 25 August 2008 12:59:21 pm paul wheaton wrote:
I have asked this question about 20 times in all sorts of different
places. Any time anybody seems like they might possibly know ...
So I ask it again here.
In case nobody knows, I hope that somebody might carry this question
with them and maybe some day spot an answer.
So we know that black locust wood lasts a long time. Old time farmers
would call it "stone wood" claiming that it would last longer than
stones when used as fence posts.
Why? Does it have some anti-fungal property? Anti-microbial? I've
heard some people say something about it could be because it is just
so dense - but that doesn't seem right either. Other dense woods seem
to decompose fairly rapidly.
------------------------------
Message: 8
Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2008 18:46:58 -0700
From: "paul wheaton" <paul@richsoil.com>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] what makes black locust last so long?
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID:
<22d4eb790808251846m501c3490oa403c71a870d7a7d@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Thanks for the link Jay! Lots of excellent info!
Some of it was over my head, but I did manage to learn quite a few things.
I tried to find out what flavonoids were, and I found out that they
prevent cancer. But that doesn't help me to understand how they make
the wood last so long. Do flavonoids poison natures composters? Are
flavonoids like some sort of natural plastic?
http://www.lib.ncsu.edu/theses/available/etd-11242003-154755/unrestricted/etd.pdf
2.4 Secondary Metabolites of Black Locust and Effect on Animals
As mentioned previously, the heartwood of BL is primarily used for fence
posts,
poles, railroad ties, and mine timbers and can endure for over 100 years in
the soil. Its
remarkable decay resistance is due to high flavonoid concentrations (6% of dry
weight),
specifically the constituents, robtin (15,000 ppm), robinetin (20,000 to
80,000 ppm) and
dihydrorobinetin (53,000 to 176,000 ppm)(Smith et al., 1989). Other,
flavonoids present in
the heartwood are butein, butin, fisetin, fustin, and liquiritigenin (Duke,
2000)
On Monday 25 August 2008 12:59:21 pm paul wheaton wrote:
I have asked this question about 20 times in all sorts of different_______________________________________________
places. Any time anybody seems like they might possibly know ...
So I ask it again here.
In case nobody knows, I hope that somebody might carry this question
with them and maybe some day spot an answer.
So we know that black locust wood lasts a long time. Old time farmers
would call it "stone wood" claiming that it would last longer than
stones when used as fence posts.
Why? Does it have some anti-fungal property? Anti-microbial? I've
heard some people say something about it could be because it is just
so dense - but that doesn't seem right either. Other dense woods seem
to decompose fairly rapidly.
permaculture mailing list
permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Subscribe or unsubscribe here:
http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
Google command to search archives:
site:https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture searchstring
------------------------------
Message: 9
Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2008 22:12:46 -0500
From: "Jim Powell (Madison Environmental Justice Organization)"
<jimpowell@mejo.us>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] what makes black locust last so long?
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <48B374AE.4090105@mejo.us>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
This is great! Thanks.
I have a cord of black locust, and love the way it burns. It's from the
previous owner of my land who hated black locust because she thought of
it an an invasive. I also have a great black locust fence, that I sure
hope last 100 years, as you write. We border some park land, and that's
how they treat it too--an invasive to be rid of. It does grow like
crazy, but then the pioneers here in south central Wisconsin planted in
on purpose.
Echoing a previous question: any idea why it grows like crazy, at least
on occasion? Apparently it didn't grow to like crazy for 150 years (when
the pioneers planted it), but now it does (or people think it does).
JIM
Rock River Watershed
South Central Wisconsin
Jay Woods wrote:
http://www.lib.ncsu.edu/theses/available/etd-11242003-154755/unrestricted/etd.pdf
2.4 Secondary Metabolites of Black Locust and Effect on Animals
As mentioned previously, the heartwood of BL is primarily used for fence
posts,
poles, railroad ties, and mine timbers and can endure for over 100 years in
the soil. Its
remarkable decay resistance is due to high flavonoid concentrations (6% of dry
weight),
specifically the constituents, robtin (15,000 ppm), robinetin (20,000 to
80,000 ppm) and
dihydrorobinetin (53,000 to 176,000 ppm)(Smith et al., 1989). Other,
flavonoids present in
the heartwood are butein, butin, fisetin, fustin, and liquiritigenin (Duke,
2000)
On Monday 25 August 2008 12:59:21 pm paul wheaton wrote:
I have asked this question about 20 times in all sorts of different_______________________________________________
places. Any time anybody seems like they might possibly know ...
So I ask it again here.
In case nobody knows, I hope that somebody might carry this question
with them and maybe some day spot an answer.
So we know that black locust wood lasts a long time. Old time farmers
would call it "stone wood" claiming that it would last longer than
stones when used as fence posts.
Why? Does it have some anti-fungal property? Anti-microbial? I've
heard some people say something about it could be because it is just
so dense - but that doesn't seem right either. Other dense woods seem
to decompose fairly rapidly.
permaculture mailing list
permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Subscribe or unsubscribe here:
http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
Google command to search archives:
site:https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture searchstring
------------------------------
Message: 10
Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2008 21:41:51 -0700
From: "paul wheaton" <paul@richsoil.com>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] what makes black locust last so long?
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID:
<22d4eb790808252141y6bcbe8bdg17ab6d4e3b3ebbcf@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
So I went to add this excellent link to my online notes and I see that
Toby Hemenway did, indeed answer this question some time ago. And I
even responded. How could I forget that?
His response was quite interesting. Something about big heaps of
natural fungicides that are strongly locked up in the wood. So the
wood won't rot and at the same time the fungicides don't ooze into
other stuff.
More at http://www.permies.com/permaculture-forums/224_0/organic-practices/what-makes-black-locust-last-so-long-is-it-safe-for-gardens
On Mon, Aug 25, 2008 at 6:46 PM, paul wheaton <paul@richsoil.com> wrote:
Thanks for the link Jay! Lots of excellent info!
Some of it was over my head, but I did manage to learn quite a few things.
I tried to find out what flavonoids were, and I found out that they
prevent cancer. But that doesn't help me to understand how they make
the wood last so long. Do flavonoids poison natures composters? Are
flavonoids like some sort of natural plastic?
http://www.lib.ncsu.edu/theses/available/etd-11242003-154755/unrestricted/etd.pdf
2.4 Secondary Metabolites of Black Locust and Effect on Animals
As mentioned previously, the heartwood of BL is primarily used for fence
posts,
poles, railroad ties, and mine timbers and can endure for over 100 years in
the soil. Its
remarkable decay resistance is due to high flavonoid concentrations (6% of dry
weight),
specifically the constituents, robtin (15,000 ppm), robinetin (20,000 to
80,000 ppm) and
dihydrorobinetin (53,000 to 176,000 ppm)(Smith et al., 1989). Other,
flavonoids present in
the heartwood are butein, butin, fisetin, fustin, and liquiritigenin (Duke,
2000)
On Monday 25 August 2008 12:59:21 pm paul wheaton wrote:
I have asked this question about 20 times in all sorts of different_______________________________________________
places. Any time anybody seems like they might possibly know ...
So I ask it again here.
In case nobody knows, I hope that somebody might carry this question
with them and maybe some day spot an answer.
So we know that black locust wood lasts a long time. Old time farmers
would call it "stone wood" claiming that it would last longer than
stones when used as fence posts.
Why? Does it have some anti-fungal property? Anti-microbial? I've
heard some people say something about it could be because it is just
so dense - but that doesn't seem right either. Other dense woods seem
to decompose fairly rapidly.
permaculture mailing list
permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Subscribe or unsubscribe here:
http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
Google command to search archives:
site:https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture searchstring
------------------------------
Message: 11
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2008 04:16:40 -0500
From: Jay Woods <woodsjay@cox.net>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] what makes black locust last so long?
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <200808260416.40174.woodsjay@cox.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Are you gardening under the trees and cultivating. That will trigger suckering
from root clipping.
On Monday 25 August 2008 10:12:46 pm Jim Powell (Madison Environmental Justice
Organization) wrote:
This is great! Thanks.
I have a cord of black locust, and love the way it burns. It's from the
previous owner of my land who hated black locust because she thought of
it an an invasive. I also have a great black locust fence, that I sure
hope last 100 years, as you write. We border some park land, and that's
how they treat it too--an invasive to be rid of. It does grow like
crazy, but then the pioneers here in south central Wisconsin planted in
on purpose.
Echoing a previous question: any idea why it grows like crazy, at least
on occasion? Apparently it didn't grow to like crazy for 150 years (when
the pioneers planted it), but now it does (or people think it does).
JIM
Rock River Watershed
South Central Wisconsin
------------------------------
Message: 12
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2008 09:30:26 -0400
From: lbsaltzman@aol.com
Subject: Re: [permaculture] what makes black locust last so long?
To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Message-ID: <8CAD5970891DF11-1684-44F0@webmail-ne14.sysops.aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Flavanoids frequently?act as anti-oxidents.? I don't know what happens?once the lumber is cut,?but possibly the presence of anti-oxidents slows down the decay process. Just a guess.?
-----Original Message-----
From: paul wheaton <paul@richsoil.com>
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Mon, 25 Aug 2008 6:46 pm
Subject: Re: [permaculture] what makes black locust last so long?
Thanks for the link Jay! Lots of excellent info!
Some of it was over my head, but I did manage to learn quite a few things.
I tried to find out what flavonoids were, and I found out that they
prevent cancer. But that doesn't help me to understand how they make
the wood last so long. Do flavonoids poison natures composters? Are
flavonoids like some sort of natural plastic?
http://www.lib.ncsu.edu/theses/available/etd-11242003-154755/unrestricted/etd.pdfman/listinfo/permaculture
2.4 Secondary Metabolites of Black Locust and Effect on Animals
As mentioned previously, the heartwood of BL is primarily used for fence
posts,
poles, railroad ties, and mine timbers and can endure for over 100 years in
the soil. Its
remarkable decay resistance is due to high flavonoid concentrations (6% of dry
weight),
specifically the constituents, robtin (15,000 ppm), robinetin (20,000 to
80,000 ppm) and
dihydrorobinetin (53,000 to 176,000 ppm)(Smith et al., 1989). Other,
flavonoids present in
the heartwood are butein, butin, fisetin, fustin, and liquiritigenin (Duke,
2000)
On Monday 25 August 2008 12:59:21 pm paul wheaton wrote:
I have asked this question about 20 times in all sorts of different_______________________________________________
places. Any time anybody seems like they might possibly know ...
So I ask it again here.
In case nobody knows, I hope that somebody might carry this question
with them and maybe some day spot an answer.
So we know that black locust wood lasts a long time. Old time farmers
would call it "stone wood" claiming that it would last longer than
stones when used as fence posts.
Why? Does it have some anti-fungal property? Anti-microbial? I've
heard some people say something about it could be because it is just
so dense - but that doesn't seem right either. Other dense woods seem
to decompose fairly rapidly.
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------------------------------
Message: 13
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2008 09:37:51 -0400
From: Toby Hemenway <toby@patternliteracy.com>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] what makes black locust last so long?
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <48B4072F.1060102@patternliteracy.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Jay Woods wrote:
Are you gardening under the trees and cultivating. That will trigger suckeringJay has named the cause of the "invasive" property of black locust. If
from root clipping.
we're being more careful with language, black locust is better termed
"expansive," since it's merely spreading, like bamboo, into directly
adjacent soil, as opposed to "dispersive", which, unlike black locust,
means setting seed and flying off into new environments. The word
"invasive" is grossly inaccurate, as it puts all the impetus on the
species. A species' ability to enter a new environment depends on
qualities of that environment (like natural predators, disturbance,
unused resources, etc.) more than the qualities of the new species. I
like Dave Jacke's term of opportunistic far more than the loaded
"invasive." (Dave is sitting next to me right now at the PDC I'm teaching.)
Black locust puts out suckers if the main trunk is cut or if the roots
are cut (disturbance). So a naive attempt to get rid of it by cutting,
and then angrily cutting the inevitable suckers in ignorance of the
intrinsic qualities of the species, will result in exactly the opposite
of the desired result. And in typical hubris (writer returns to soapbox)
we then hate the plant instead of holding up a mirror to see the real
cause of the problem, and trying to understand the character of what we
are dealing with.
So how do you work with nature instead of against? If you are determined
to get rid of this valuable, multi-functional fast sequesterer of
carbon, girdle it and wait for it to die before cutting it down. But
better yet, because girdling doesn't always work, in an act of
ecological aikido, use the shoots as coppice for firewood, browse,
wattle-and-daub construction, small fence supports, and a hundred other
things.
Toby
http://patternliteracy.com
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End of permaculture Digest, Vol 67, Issue 25
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- Re: [permaculture] permaculture Digest, Vol 67, Issue 25, Bryce Ruddock, 08/26/2008
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