permaculture

[Harmon Seaver <hseaver@gmail.com>]

Marimike6@cs.com wrote:
> "See -- that's just more of the disinformation campaign being waged
> against ethanol. The truth is just exactly the opposite -- ethanol is a
> much superior fuel to gasoline, in every way. It burns much cooler and
> cleaner, so that engines running on ethanol can run 3x as long before
> needing a rebuild. It is much higher octane and contains it's own
> oxygenators so you can run a much higher compression ratio and get far
> more power and efficiency."
> 
> I don't know, Harmon... what I'm hearing is that it's more expensive (both 
> in 
> dollars

   In dollars? I just told you what the price is locally for
commercially produced (industrial agriculture) ethanol -- almost exactly
a dollar less than regular pump gasoline.


> and in the energy required to produce it) 

   No, what you are talking about is industrial-chemical-unsustainable
agriculture. This is the permaculture list, right? So talk about it in
permaculture terms. What does it cost to grow an acre of cattails,
buffalo gourd, or even sugarcane? Plant it once, harvest forever, no
chemical inputs.
   But more importantly -- can you produce gasoline on your homestead? I
can easily produce all the fuel I need with no subsidies, no chemical
inputs, and make huge profits per acre at the same time.



and the mileage is worse.

   Not so at all. Sure, if you use an engine designed for gasoline, with
no modifications, you'll get 10%-25% less milage. But obviously if we
are going to be fueling with ethanol instead of gasoline, we will use
engines optimized for that fuel, and in which case we get more power and
 more mpg.


> If grain alcohol is cleaner, that's very nice. But I think we should weigh 
> both 
> sides of the coin.
> 
> First, I would challenge your assumption that unsubsidised gasoline would 
> cost us $15 a gallon. I used to think Big Oil was getting a lot of breaks-- 
> until 
> I looked into it. But look at their financial statements. They're paying 
> taxes at about the same proportion as Joe Paycheck. The only serious break 
> I can 
> think of is the forgiveness of royalties in Gulf drilling operations.
> 
> However, you can educate me by offering specifics.
> 

http://www.progress.org/gasoline.htm
http://www.icta.org/doc/Real%20Price%20of%20Gasoline.pdf
http://www.iags.org/costofoil.html




> Both fuels have some externals to consider. Corn ethanol, for example, has 
> the Dead Zone in the Gulf of Mexico. I think the following article offers 
> some 
> useful analysis:

   No, once again you are talking about industrial agriculture. And the
fact is that farmers were growing just as much corn and using just as
much fertilizer before ethanol ever came on the scene -- and it was
being piled up all over the country and left to rot -- all because of
the obscene subsidy program.
   The "Dead Zone" was there long, long, long before the first ethanol
plant was built.


-- 
Harmon Seaver