permaculture

[Paul Cereghino <paul.cereghino@comcast.net>]

Robyn Williamson wrote:

> people to lighten up a bit.... personal attack mode.
As I have been told..."What is important to understand is [yourself]"

> officially we all have 
> rights but it's not so in practice
>  
We either have social contracts and institutions that protect us and our 
land from aggressors or we don't.  I am starting to think that 'rights' 
is just a bunch of fancy language to cloud our vision of reality.

> I didn't vote for little king johnnie but I got him 
> anyway and have to live with the consequences. 
>  
You think YOU'VE got it bad with petty tyrants!?  And I'll bet your king 
johnnie didn't win because everyone sat down throught it through and 
figured he was the best man for the job.  He won because his team know 
how to manipulate a disfunctional human system, and no one was in a 
position to stop him.  It was as easy as pruning a hedge with a hand 
held two-stroke trimmer, and about as elegant.

> as such it is "invisible" for all intents and purposes in a concept plan.

What is this 'invisibility' thing and where did it come from?  Can 
someone tell me how this fits into primal Permaculture design theory.  
Wind is invisible, hunger is invisible...?

I would suggest that permaculture might apply to any system.  Your king 
johnnie and all our petty kings takes advantage of poorly arranged 
political infrastructure -- the pieces (you and me and our neighbors) 
are not in beneficial relationship.  Information flow is the driving 
resource.  Couldn't a permaculture design explicitly consider the 
position of the project (inluding the human relationships) in the flow 
of information and therefore political power?

> Do you think that
> those who grasp at power are unintelligent?
>  
>
>
> Yes, either that or they're just megalomaniacs.  I think true leaders 
> emerge at the behest of those who would follow. 
>  
I heard an inspiring discussion of civil rights in the 400th anniversary 
of Jamestown (the birthplace of american slavery).  Some great leader 
said, that leaders follow the movement of the people.  No movement, no 
leader.  I think it is very dangerous to assume anything about the 
character, mental capacity, or intentions of people engaged in political 
systems.  I have met all types.  I have seen a good share of human 
failings on this list as well... why would we accept our brothers and 
sisters here and reject them if they engage in politics?  It is a system 
with layers of deception and built on information asymmetry, and some 
really fine people that are fully engaged with speaking truth to power, 
not behind their backs in some virtual rabbit hole, but IN the halls of 
power.  If there was an organized populice watching their back they 
might start looking like leaders.

> The whole spectrum of existing political relationships are
> important to learn and understand, not as something to ridicule or
> separate from,
>  
>
>
> I beg to differ on that last point and reckon your average politician 
> these days is fair game, when they stop telling people lies, I'll stop 
> telling the truth about them.  
Agreed... I am not particularly interested in individual politicians 
either.  Its the "political relationships" between system elements that 
I am interested in.  By learning how information movement, collection, 
transformation, redistribution patterns lead to decisions, policy, 
social contracts and values... then we are in a position to use 
permaculture on politics.  To start small, and create feedback loops, 
accomplish the maximum with minimum input.  The power grabbers have to 
work against the interest of the polity.  They thrive in secrecy, 
ignorance, deception, and bigotry.  We have the advantage of actually 
thinking about the common good in the largest (ecological) sense.  By 
creating health, life and truth, we are working in harmony with 
intrinsic leadings of the human soul.  Don't be distracted by the words 
flapping from the mouth of the bozo in the suit.  Look for the energy 
pattern. 

What is permacultures political tool kit.  What are the patterns... can 
someone help me think this through?

~Paul