permaculture

["Ken Beer" <nkbeer@bigpond.net.au>]

Hullo from "Down Under"
I have been amazed at the discussion on Permaculture & Religion. As a 
Salvation Army Officer for 40 years & inheriting my father-in-laws basic non 
chemical approach to farming/gardening 50 years ago, & before pc was 
developed by Bill & Co, I was taught to respect the land & its environment & 
not mistreat it.
I have been pleased to teach Pc in my district & write in a local paper, but 
if people know my faith ,thats fine, & they may respect ME for whom I am, 
not trying to push some other agenda.
We have not learnt the lessons of history & it will behove us well to worry 
more about what God thinks we should do with our space around us than what 
good looking at what others are trying to twist into their own little man 
made ideas,
Ken Beer
----- Original Message ----- 
From: <permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org>
To: <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Saturday, January 27, 2007 6:27 AM
Subject: permaculture Digest, Vol 48, Issue 52


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> Today's Topics:
>
>   1. Re: permaculture spirituality (Myron Mykyta)
>   2. Re: permaculture spirituality (Lawrence F. London, Jr.)
>   3. Re: permaculture spirituality (Don Titmus)
>   4. Re: Harvesting of prairie biomass for energy? (Rael Bassan)
>   5. Meet With Lighting, Photographs by Sean Hsieh
>      (Lawrence F. London, Jr.)
>   6. Re: permaculture spirituality (roxy6c)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 11:06:36 -0800 (PST)
> From: Myron Mykyta <myronmykyta@yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] permaculture spirituality
> To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Message-ID: <164048.70225.qm@web30705.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
>
> A common thread in my local green/permaculture community is a strong 
> calling from Daniel Quinn's "Ishmael" to enact natural, permaculture, and 
> especially 'old ways' -- sustainable ways -- of living.  In tieing this 
> post to the spirituality issue, I took Ishmael as actually emphasizing (or 
> at least reinforcing) Jesus' Christianinty (not necessarily the Church's 
> version, though); "Leave all behind and follow me" was a reminder that the 
> natural ways -- that 'God' gave us -- are the right way. That's even an 
> issue related to permaculture, are we acting as 'little gods' in our 
> agriculture or should we be practicing even more natural systems, focusing 
> on harvesting wild edibles, etc.
>
>
> Myron
>
>  "All great truths begin as blasphemies"
> -George Bernard Shaw
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection.
> Try the free Yahoo! Mail Beta.
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 14:10:36 -0500
> From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <lfl@intrex.net>
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] permaculture spirituality
> To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Message-ID: <45BA522C.7050304@intrex.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
>
> Paul Cereghino wrote:
>
> > I don't see incorporation of permaculture into sub-cultural cosmologies 
> > as beneficial.
>
> Don't you mean the reverse? Otherwise you'd be denying cultural groups who 
> embrace
> certain cosmological concepts access to all the world of permaculture has 
> to offer.
>
> > The 'New Age' subculture is looking for unitary philosophical phenomena
> > much like other evangelical faith-based communities.  And with slight
> > adaptation, permaculture can be presented as a unitary all encompassing
> > philosophy.
>
> I agree with this.
>
> > However I think this is a subcultural phenomena.  I would
>
> That may be. Part of the delight derived from participating in a PDC is 
> exposure to the
> mystery and ingenuity of permaculture especially as one uses careful 
> observation,
> analysis and knowledgebuilding to become adept at practicing and teaching 
> permaculture.
>
> > suspect that this list does NOT reflect a cross cutting demographic
> > (referencing the esteemed mr. London's 'mainstream' comments earlier),
>
> I meant the permaculture professionals doing it full or part time in a 
> serious way.
>
> > and that keeping Permaculture free and clear 'New Age' cultural
> > influences, is as critical to its expansion in America as building a
> > legitimate connection to the scientific community.
>
> This is true.
>
> LL
> --
> Lawrence F. London, Jr.
> Venaura Farm
> lfl@intrex.net
> http://market-farming.com
> http://market-farming.com/venaurafarm
> http://venaurafarm.blogspot.com/
> http://www.ibiblio.org/ecolandtech
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 12:19:28 -0700
> From: "Don Titmus" <ujgs2@4dirs.com>
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] permaculture spirituality
> To: "permaculture" <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Message-ID: <000201c7417e$f3f6a1e0$0200a8c0@dons>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
> reply-type=original
>
> Interesting!
> What culture or religion have not consumed another ! Or better yet adopted
> another for better  (or worse)
> Christians could not stamp out the "Pagans" and so adapted by blending one
> faith "Holi-day" into another.
>
> There are no patents on symbology...they are of the earth.
>
> It doesn't matter if You believe in "Creation or Evolution" WE all come 
> from
> the "One"
>
> We are All Cousins, We are All related
>
> Don
> "Care of the Earth (the whole and all its beings), Care of the People, 
> Share
> the Resources"
>
> Multi-Spiritual and proud to be a part of the whole.
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Paul Cereghino" <paul.cereghino@comcast.net>
> To: "permaculture" <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Sent: Friday, January 26, 2007 11:28 AM
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] permaculture spirituality
>
>
> > And then there are groups of white people borrowing American Indian
> > religious motifs (after borrowing their land).  I personally find
> > elements of New Age subcultural beliefs as challanging to digest as
> > elements of evangelical christain beliefs.  And I would suggest that
> > christian practice can also feed the whole mind-body-spirit, just as a
> > 'New Age' practice, purporting to be whole, can fail to do so.
> > Two-edged swords everywhere you look.  In my gut, I don't see
> > incorporation of permaculture into sub-cultural cosmologies as 
> > beneficial.
> >
> > The 'New Age' subculture is looking for unitary philosophical phenomena
> > much like other evangelical faith-based communities.  And with slight
> > adaptation, permaculture can be presented as a unitary all encompassing
> > philosophy.  However I think this is a subcultural phenomena.  I would
> > suspect that this list does NOT reflect a cross cutting demographic
> > (referencing the esteemed mr. London's 'mainstream' comments earlier),
> > and that keeping Permaculture free and clear 'New Age' cultural
> > influences, is as critical to its expansion in America as building a
> > legitimate connection to the scientific community.  As MLK used to
> > say... keep your eye on the prize.
> >
> > Toby, I like your last question... the correlation between 'new age
> > flavor' and permaculture is important.
> >
> > Paul Cereghino
> >
> > > Toby and all,
> > >
> > > re Any other theories as to why Pc gatherings and courses often have a 
> > > New
> > > Age flavor?
> > >
> > > We are of the Earth and cannot seperate ourselves from it and every thing
> > > around us. We seem to forget We (humans) are animals too !!! As PCers we
> > > design relationships, connections, and guilds into every part of our
> > > homesites. We therefore cannot seperate ourselves from Spirit (God/dess,
> > > Great Spirit, Creator et al).
> > >
> > > The "New Age" folks get this better than some of the other "religions" 
> > > and
> > > being open to spirit they may adopt a "Findhorn" practice in the garden.
> > > Or
> > > practice Feng Shui, or any other spiritual practice that Feeds the 
> > > Whole -
> > > body. mind, Spirit.
> > >
> > > Don
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > > From: "Toby Hemenway" <toby@patternliteracy.com>
> > > To: "permaculture list" <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> > > Sent: Thursday, January 25, 2007 8:57 PM
> > > Subject: Re: [permaculture] permaculture spirituality (was: Message from
> > > thecurrent President)
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > On 1/24/07 6:51 PM, "Tracie Boellner"  wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > Too many points to respond to that really aren't relevant to this list,
> > > > > so I
> > > > > won't bore anyone with it.  My apologies for posting my original
> > > > > response
> > > > > to
> > > > > the list.  It was a kneejerk reaction, and I should have kept it to
> > > > > myself.
> > > > >
> > > > > Still searching for the facts,
> > > > > Tracie in Michigan
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > Actually, I want to thank Tracy for posting her response. Mollison has
> > > > been
> > > > very emphatic about trying to build that "wall of separation" between
> > > > permaculture and any specific spiritual belief system. He, and a lot of
> > > > others (myself included) feel that connecting Pc with a particular set 
> > > > of
> > > > spiritual beliefs, while strengthening its appeal to that group, would
> > > > diminish its ability to be universally adopted by those with other
> > > > beliefs.
> > > > But there has gotten to be a fairly strong link between Pc and
> > > > Earth-based
> > > > or New Age spirituality. I've met plenty of permaculture practitioners
> > > > who
> > > > are devout Christian, Jewish, or other faiths, but rarely do they
> > > > explicitly
> > > > express permaculture in spiritual terms. But I've been to plenty of Pc
> > > > gatherings that are strongly pagan/wiccan/New Age. (full disclosure: I'm
> > > > pantheist/Buddhist myself, if I've gotta give a name to it). Starhawk's
> > > > Earth Activist Training, for example, is a Pc certification course that
> > > > is
> > > > strongly imbued with Earth-based spirituality. I don't know of any
> > > > Christian
> > > > or Jewish PDCs. So why has Pc become linked with New Age beliefs?
> > > >
> > > > The light went on with Tracy's post. If you'll pardon my returning to my
> > > > horticulture/agriculture theme: Horticultural societies, according to
> > > > anthropologists, tend to view all of nature as imbued with spirit. For
> > > > them,
> > > > God is in the rocks, the water, the plants. In most cases, a different
> > > > (but
> > > > ultimately interlinked) spirit is responsible for each place, each
> > > > element,
> > > > each plant. Agricultural societies, on the other hand, tend to see 
> > > > spirit
> > > > as
> > > > coming from someplace out of this physical world, usually a sky god or
> > > > set
> > > > of gods not connected with a particular place on Earth. Permaculture is
> > > > an
> > > > attempt to create a contemporary horticultural society; at least that 
> > > > how
> > > > I'm thinking of it these days. So although it can appeal to a wide
> > > > variety
> > > > of people, it is going to have a large following among people who have a
> > > > horticulturalist's view of spirit. That means it's going to be difficult
> > > > to
> > > > keep that wall of separation up. Horticultural practices and ethics will
> > > > naturally be drawn to (and may even inspire) a horticulturalist
> > > > spirituality. An important task for those of us who have an Earth-based
> > > > spirituality is not to create a sense of exclusion of other beliefs.
> > > >
> > > > That's actually a natural thing for pagans. The Romans, for example,
> > > > usually
> > > > allowed the people they conquered to continue worshipping their own 
> > > > gods.
> > > > Being polytheistic they naturally accepted the idea that there would be
> > > > more
> > > > gods than the ones they worshipped. Each group could have its own as 
> > > > long
> > > > as
> > > > they also recognized the Roman gods. They did become intolerant of Jews
> > > > and
> > > > Christians because these monotheists would not accept the Roman gods,
> > > > which
> > > > the Romans felt would both anger the gods and create political problems.
> > > > Polytheists tend to be pretty tolerant in this way; monotheists, less 
> > > > so.
> > > >
> > > > Any other theories as to why Pc gatherings and courses often have a New
> > > > Age
> > > > flavor?
> > > >
> > > > Toby
> > > > __________________
> > > > Learn permaculture in a tropical food forest in Belize this February.
> > > > Details at http://patternliteracy.com
> > > > __________________
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > permaculture mailing list
> > > > permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> > > > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > permaculture mailing list
> > > permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> > > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > permaculture mailing list
> > permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 13:32:30 -0600
> From: Rael Bassan <rael@ripco.com>
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] Harvesting of prairie biomass for energy?
> To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20070126011820.037110d0@pop2b.ripco.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
>
> Actually soil organic matter increased.
>
> The ten year study used infertile agriculturally degraded land and showed
> that soil carbon increased logarithmically, and is likely to continue 
> to -- 
> leveling off after perhaps a hundred years, especially if including late
> successional species. Again, they propose harvesting only the aboveground
> biomass, which is akin to the burning practices of Native Americans and
> restoration ecologists. The only soil amendment likely to be required is
> phosphorous, which could be handled conveniently by returning last years
> ashes during harvesting (stacking).
>
> ...Rael
>
> At 01:13 AM 1/26/2007 -0500,Lawrence F. London, Jr. <lfl@intrex.net> 
> wrote:
> > Rael Bassan <rael@...> writes:
> > >
> > > In a recent [Permaculture Forum (Upper Midwest)] post there was some
> > > concern about the proposed harvesting of prairie biomass for energy,
> > > suggested by the  Minnesota studies of David Tillman's group. According 
> > > to
> > > their analysis, using a prairie plant mixture of up to 14 species 
> > > "comes
> > > out 6 to 16 times better than corn grain ethanol or biodeisel [sic] ."
> > > www.vnps.org/chapters/princewilliam/wildnewsjanfeb07.pdf
> >
> > Doesn't hrvesting prairie plants for conversion to ethanol result in 
> > serious
> > organic matter and accompanying soil microflora depetion in those soils?
> >
> > LL
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 15:19:04 -0500
> From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <lfl@intrex.net>
> Subject: [permaculture] Meet With Lighting, Photographs by Sean Hsieh
> To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Message-ID: <45BA6238.3000307@intrex.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
>
> This may be the best outdoor photography I have ever seen.
> It is work of epic proportions.
>
> especially see the daylilly fields (mountainsides)
>
> Meet With Lighting
> Photographs by Sean Hsieh
> http://www.pbase.com/sean5834
> --
> Lawrence F. London, Jr.
> Venaura Farm
> lfl@intrex.net
> http://market-farming.com
> http://market-farming.com/venaurafarm
> http://venaurafarm.blogspot.com/
> http://www.ibiblio.org/ecolandtech
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 12:27:49 -0800 (PST)
> From: roxy6c <roxy6c@yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] permaculture spirituality
> To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Message-ID: <102393.89331.qm@web30212.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
>
>
> The "domination" or colonization practice and memeplex
> is a direct result of agriculture. Agriculture creates
> a surplus which leads to a population increase, which
> in turn requires annexation of new land to provide
> more crops to feed the population. In an economic
> system based on constant growth (like our current
> one), you must expand or face collapse. Like Toby
> said, populations that do not practice agriculture do
> not have these practices and memes. Check out Jared
> Diamond's "Guns Germs & Steel" for a theory of why
> Eurasians were more successful at colonization.
>
> Organized religion (Judao-Christian, Islam, Buddhist,
> Confucian) works well as a control mechanism for
> agriculture, by setting people up to expect a life of
> toil and/or giving them a justification for expansion
> through holy wars or converting heathens. The latter
> worked especially well under Christianity, but farmers
> stamped out most of the "pagans" long before the
> Christians arrived.
>
> My personal opinion is that most New Age stuff out
> there is not really land or community based, but more
> about self-gratification, and so does not interest me
> much. I've met too many newagers who've waxed poetic
> about things like "the spirit of the bear", without
> ever having encountered a real bear in their lives or
> understanding the nature of the animal. If people are
> out there strengthening their communities and
> developing their own specific land-based
> spiritualities, then more power to them. But I haven't
> seen that very often.
>
>
>
>
>
> --- Don Titmus <ujgs2@4dirs.com> wrote:
>
> > Interesting!
> > What culture or religion have not consumed another !
> > Or better yet adopted
> > another for better  (or worse)
> > Christians could not stamp out the "Pagans" and so
> > adapted by blending one
> > faith "Holi-day" into another.
> >
> > There are no patents on symbology...they are of the
> > earth.
> >
> > It doesn't matter if You believe in "Creation or
> > Evolution" WE all come from
> > the "One"
> >
> > We are All Cousins, We are All related
> >
> > Don
> > "Care of the Earth (the whole and all its beings),
> > Care of the People, Share
> > the Resources"
> >
> > Multi-Spiritual and proud to be a part of the whole.
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > From: "Paul Cereghino" <paul.cereghino@comcast.net>
> > To: "permaculture" <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> > Sent: Friday, January 26, 2007 11:28 AM
> > Subject: Re: [permaculture] permaculture
> > spirituality
> >
> >
> > > And then there are groups of white people
> > borrowing American Indian
> > > religious motifs (after borrowing their land).  I
> > personally find
> > > elements of New Age subcultural beliefs as
> > challanging to digest as
> > > elements of evangelical christain beliefs.  And I
> > would suggest that
> > > christian practice can also feed the whole
> > mind-body-spirit, just as a
> > > 'New Age' practice, purporting to be whole, can
> > fail to do so.
> > > Two-edged swords everywhere you look.  In my gut,
> > I don't see
> > > incorporation of permaculture into sub-cultural
> > cosmologies as beneficial.
> > >
> > > The 'New Age' subculture is looking for unitary
> > philosophical phenomena
> > > much like other evangelical faith-based
> > communities.  And with slight
> > > adaptation, permaculture can be presented as a
> > unitary all encompassing
> > > philosophy.  However I think this is a subcultural
> > phenomena.  I would
> > > suspect that this list does NOT reflect a cross
> > cutting demographic
> > > (referencing the esteemed mr. London's
> > 'mainstream' comments earlier),
> > > and that keeping Permaculture free and clear 'New
> > Age' cultural
> > > influences, is as critical to its expansion in
> > America as building a
> > > legitimate connection to the scientific community.
> >  As MLK used to
> > > say... keep your eye on the prize.
> > >
> > > Toby, I like your last question... the correlation
> > between 'new age
> > > flavor' and permaculture is important.
> > >
> > > Paul Cereghino
> > >
> > >>Toby and all,
> > >>
> > >>re Any other theories as to why Pc gatherings and
> > courses often have a New
> > >>Age flavor?
> > >>
> > >>We are of the Earth and cannot seperate ourselves
> > from it and every thing
> > >>around us. We seem to forget We (humans) are
> > animals too !!! As PCers we
> > >>design relationships, connections, and guilds into
> > every part of our
> > >>homesites. We therefore cannot seperate ourselves
> > from Spirit (God/dess,
> > >>Great Spirit, Creator et al).
> > >>
> > >>The "New Age" folks get this better than some of
> > the other "religions" and
> > >>being open to spirit they may adopt a "Findhorn"
> > practice in the garden.
> > >>Or
> > >>practice Feng Shui, or any other spiritual
> > practice that Feeds the Whole -
> > >>body. mind, Spirit.
> > >>
> > >>Don
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>----- Original Message ----- 
> > >>From: "Toby Hemenway" <toby@patternliteracy.com>
> > >>To: "permaculture list"
> > <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> > >>Sent: Thursday, January 25, 2007 8:57 PM
> > >>Subject: Re: [permaculture] permaculture
> > spirituality (was: Message from
> > >>thecurrent President)
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>>On 1/24/07 6:51 PM, "Tracie Boellner"  wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>>Too many points to respond to that really aren't
> > relevant to this list,
> > >>>>so I
> > >>>>won't bore anyone with it.  My apologies for
> > posting my original
> > >>>>response
> > >>>>to
> > >>>>the list.  It was a kneejerk reaction, and I
> > should have kept it to
> > >>>>myself.
> > >>>>
> > >>>>Still searching for the facts,
> > >>>>Tracie in Michigan
> > >>>>----- Original Message -----
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>Actually, I want to thank Tracy for posting her
> > response. Mollison has
> > >>>been
> > >>>very emphatic about trying to build that "wall of
> > separation" between
> > >>>permaculture and any specific spiritual belief
> > system. He, and a lot of
> > >>>others (myself included) feel that connecting Pc
> > with a particular set of
> > >>>spiritual beliefs, while strengthening its appeal
> > to that group, would
> > >>>diminish its ability to be universally adopted by
> > those with other
> > >>>beliefs.
> > >>>But there has gotten to be a fairly strong link
> > between Pc and
> > >>>Earth-based
> > >>>or New Age spirituality. I've met plenty of
> > permaculture practitioners
> > >>>who
> > >>>are devout Christian, Jewish, or other faiths,
> > but rarely do they
> > >>>explicitly
> > >>>express permaculture in spiritual terms. But I've
> > been to plenty of Pc
> > >>>gatherings that are strongly pagan/wiccan/New
> > Age. (full disclosure: I'm
> > >>>pantheist/Buddhist myself, if I've gotta give a
> > name to it). Starhawk's
> > >>>Earth Activist Training, for example, is a Pc
> > certification course that
> > >>>is
> > >>>strongly imbued with Earth-based spirituality. I
> > don't know of any
> > >>>Christian
> > >>>or Jewish PDCs. So why has Pc become linked with
> > New Age beliefs?
> > >>>
> > >>>The light went on with Tracy's post. If you'll
> > pardon my returning to my
> > >>>horticulture/agriculture theme: Horticultural
> > societies, according to
> > >>>anthropologists, tend to view all of nature as
> > imbued with spirit. For
> > >>>them,
> > >>>God is in the rocks, the water, the plants. In
> > most cases, a different
> > >>>(but
> > >>>ultimately interlinked) spirit is responsible for
> > each place, each
> > >>>element,
> > >>>each plant. Agricultural societies, on the other
> > hand, tend to see spirit
> > >>>as
> > >>>coming from someplace out of this physical world,
> > usually a sky god or
> > >>>set
> > >>>of gods not connected with a particular place on
> > Earth. Permaculture is
> > >>>an
> > >>>attempt to create a contemporary horticultural
> > society; at least that how
> > >>>I'm thinking of it these days. So although it can
> > appeal to a wide
> > >>>variety
> === message truncated ===
>
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________________________________
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>
>
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>
>
> ------------------------------
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> End of permaculture Digest, Vol 48, Issue 52
> ********************************************