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  • From: "Ken Beer" <nkbeer@bigpond.net.au>
  • To: <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
  • Subject: Re: [permaculture] permaculture Digest, Vol 48, Issue 52
  • Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 22:31:16 +1000

Hullo from "Down Under"
I have been amazed at the discussion on Permaculture & Religion. As a Salvation Army Officer for 40 years & inheriting my father-in-laws basic non chemical approach to farming/gardening 50 years ago, & before pc was developed by Bill & Co, I was taught to respect the land & its environment & not mistreat it.
I have been pleased to teach Pc in my district & write in a local paper, but if people know my faith ,thats fine, & they may respect ME for whom I am, not trying to push some other agenda.
We have not learnt the lessons of history & it will behove us well to worry more about what God thinks we should do with our space around us than what good looking at what others are trying to twist into their own little man made ideas,
Ken Beer
----- Original Message ----- From: <permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org>
To: <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Saturday, January 27, 2007 6:27 AM
Subject: permaculture Digest, Vol 48, Issue 52


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Today's Topics:

1. Re: permaculture spirituality (Myron Mykyta)
2. Re: permaculture spirituality (Lawrence F. London, Jr.)
3. Re: permaculture spirituality (Don Titmus)
4. Re: Harvesting of prairie biomass for energy? (Rael Bassan)
5. Meet With Lighting, Photographs by Sean Hsieh
(Lawrence F. London, Jr.)
6. Re: permaculture spirituality (roxy6c)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 11:06:36 -0800 (PST)
From: Myron Mykyta <myronmykyta@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] permaculture spirituality
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <164048.70225.qm@web30705.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1

A common thread in my local green/permaculture community is a strong calling from Daniel Quinn's "Ishmael" to enact natural, permaculture, and especially 'old ways' -- sustainable ways -- of living. In tieing this post to the spirituality issue, I took Ishmael as actually emphasizing (or at least reinforcing) Jesus' Christianinty (not necessarily the Church's version, though); "Leave all behind and follow me" was a reminder that the natural ways -- that 'God' gave us -- are the right way. That's even an issue related to permaculture, are we acting as 'little gods' in our agriculture or should we be practicing even more natural systems, focusing on harvesting wild edibles, etc.


Myron

"All great truths begin as blasphemies"
-George Bernard Shaw


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------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 14:10:36 -0500
From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <lfl@intrex.net>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] permaculture spirituality
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <45BA522C.7050304@intrex.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed

Paul Cereghino wrote:

I don't see incorporation of permaculture into sub-cultural cosmologies as beneficial.

Don't you mean the reverse? Otherwise you'd be denying cultural groups who embrace
certain cosmological concepts access to all the world of permaculture has to offer.


The 'New Age' subculture is looking for unitary philosophical phenomena
much like other evangelical faith-based communities. And with slight
adaptation, permaculture can be presented as a unitary all encompassing
philosophy.

I agree with this.

However I think this is a subcultural phenomena. I would

That may be. Part of the delight derived from participating in a PDC is exposure to the
mystery and ingenuity of permaculture especially as one uses careful observation,
analysis and knowledgebuilding to become adept at practicing and teaching permaculture.

suspect that this list does NOT reflect a cross cutting demographic
(referencing the esteemed mr. London's 'mainstream' comments earlier),

I meant the permaculture professionals doing it full or part time in a serious way.

and that keeping Permaculture free and clear 'New Age' cultural
influences, is as critical to its expansion in America as building a
legitimate connection to the scientific community.

This is true.

LL
--
Lawrence F. London, Jr.
Venaura Farm
lfl@intrex.net
http://market-farming.com
http://market-farming.com/venaurafarm
http://venaurafarm.blogspot.com/
http://www.ibiblio.org/ecolandtech



------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 12:19:28 -0700
From: "Don Titmus" <ujgs2@4dirs.com>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] permaculture spirituality
To: "permaculture" <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <000201c7417e$f3f6a1e0$0200a8c0@dons>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
reply-type=original

Interesting!
What culture or religion have not consumed another ! Or better yet adopted
another for better (or worse)
Christians could not stamp out the "Pagans" and so adapted by blending one
faith "Holi-day" into another.

There are no patents on symbology...they are of the earth.

It doesn't matter if You believe in "Creation or Evolution" WE all come from
the "One"

We are All Cousins, We are All related

Don
"Care of the Earth (the whole and all its beings), Care of the People, Share
the Resources"

Multi-Spiritual and proud to be a part of the whole.


----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Cereghino" <paul.cereghino@comcast.net>
To: "permaculture" <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Friday, January 26, 2007 11:28 AM
Subject: Re: [permaculture] permaculture spirituality


And then there are groups of white people borrowing American Indian
religious motifs (after borrowing their land). I personally find
elements of New Age subcultural beliefs as challanging to digest as
elements of evangelical christain beliefs. And I would suggest that
christian practice can also feed the whole mind-body-spirit, just as a
'New Age' practice, purporting to be whole, can fail to do so.
Two-edged swords everywhere you look. In my gut, I don't see
incorporation of permaculture into sub-cultural cosmologies as beneficial.

The 'New Age' subculture is looking for unitary philosophical phenomena
much like other evangelical faith-based communities. And with slight
adaptation, permaculture can be presented as a unitary all encompassing
philosophy. However I think this is a subcultural phenomena. I would
suspect that this list does NOT reflect a cross cutting demographic
(referencing the esteemed mr. London's 'mainstream' comments earlier),
and that keeping Permaculture free and clear 'New Age' cultural
influences, is as critical to its expansion in America as building a
legitimate connection to the scientific community. As MLK used to
say... keep your eye on the prize.

Toby, I like your last question... the correlation between 'new age
flavor' and permaculture is important.

Paul Cereghino

Toby and all,

re Any other theories as to why Pc gatherings and courses often have a New
Age flavor?

We are of the Earth and cannot seperate ourselves from it and every thing
around us. We seem to forget We (humans) are animals too !!! As PCers we
design relationships, connections, and guilds into every part of our
homesites. We therefore cannot seperate ourselves from Spirit (God/dess,
Great Spirit, Creator et al).

The "New Age" folks get this better than some of the other "religions" and
being open to spirit they may adopt a "Findhorn" practice in the garden.
Or
practice Feng Shui, or any other spiritual practice that Feeds the Whole -
body. mind, Spirit.

Don


----- Original Message ----- From: "Toby Hemenway" <toby@patternliteracy.com>
To: "permaculture list" <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Thursday, January 25, 2007 8:57 PM
Subject: Re: [permaculture] permaculture spirituality (was: Message from
thecurrent President)




On 1/24/07 6:51 PM, "Tracie Boellner" wrote:



Too many points to respond to that really aren't relevant to this list,
so I
won't bore anyone with it. My apologies for posting my original
response
to
the list. It was a kneejerk reaction, and I should have kept it to
myself.

Still searching for the facts,
Tracie in Michigan
----- Original Message -----


Actually, I want to thank Tracy for posting her response. Mollison has
been
very emphatic about trying to build that "wall of separation" between
permaculture and any specific spiritual belief system. He, and a lot of
others (myself included) feel that connecting Pc with a particular set of
spiritual beliefs, while strengthening its appeal to that group, would
diminish its ability to be universally adopted by those with other
beliefs.
But there has gotten to be a fairly strong link between Pc and
Earth-based
or New Age spirituality. I've met plenty of permaculture practitioners
who
are devout Christian, Jewish, or other faiths, but rarely do they
explicitly
express permaculture in spiritual terms. But I've been to plenty of Pc
gatherings that are strongly pagan/wiccan/New Age. (full disclosure: I'm
pantheist/Buddhist myself, if I've gotta give a name to it). Starhawk's
Earth Activist Training, for example, is a Pc certification course that
is
strongly imbued with Earth-based spirituality. I don't know of any
Christian
or Jewish PDCs. So why has Pc become linked with New Age beliefs?

The light went on with Tracy's post. If you'll pardon my returning to my
horticulture/agriculture theme: Horticultural societies, according to
anthropologists, tend to view all of nature as imbued with spirit. For
them,
God is in the rocks, the water, the plants. In most cases, a different
(but
ultimately interlinked) spirit is responsible for each place, each
element,
each plant. Agricultural societies, on the other hand, tend to see spirit
as
coming from someplace out of this physical world, usually a sky god or
set
of gods not connected with a particular place on Earth. Permaculture is
an
attempt to create a contemporary horticultural society; at least that how
I'm thinking of it these days. So although it can appeal to a wide
variety
of people, it is going to have a large following among people who have a
horticulturalist's view of spirit. That means it's going to be difficult
to
keep that wall of separation up. Horticultural practices and ethics will
naturally be drawn to (and may even inspire) a horticulturalist
spirituality. An important task for those of us who have an Earth-based
spirituality is not to create a sense of exclusion of other beliefs.

That's actually a natural thing for pagans. The Romans, for example,
usually
allowed the people they conquered to continue worshipping their own gods.
Being polytheistic they naturally accepted the idea that there would be
more
gods than the ones they worshipped. Each group could have its own as long
as
they also recognized the Roman gods. They did become intolerant of Jews
and
Christians because these monotheists would not accept the Roman gods,
which
the Romans felt would both anger the gods and create political problems.
Polytheists tend to be pretty tolerant in this way; monotheists, less so.

Any other theories as to why Pc gatherings and courses often have a New
Age
flavor?

Toby
__________________
Learn permaculture in a tropical food forest in Belize this February.
Details at http://patternliteracy.com
__________________



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------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 13:32:30 -0600
From: Rael Bassan <rael@ripco.com>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Harvesting of prairie biomass for energy?
To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20070126011820.037110d0@pop2b.ripco.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed

Actually soil organic matter increased.

The ten year study used infertile agriculturally degraded land and showed
that soil carbon increased logarithmically, and is likely to continue to -- leveling off after perhaps a hundred years, especially if including late
successional species. Again, they propose harvesting only the aboveground
biomass, which is akin to the burning practices of Native Americans and
restoration ecologists. The only soil amendment likely to be required is
phosphorous, which could be handled conveniently by returning last years
ashes during harvesting (stacking).

...Rael

At 01:13 AM 1/26/2007 -0500,Lawrence F. London, Jr. <lfl@intrex.net> wrote:
Rael Bassan <rael@...> writes:
>
> In a recent [Permaculture Forum (Upper Midwest)] post there was some
> concern about the proposed harvesting of prairie biomass for energy,
> suggested by the Minnesota studies of David Tillman's group. According > to
> their analysis, using a prairie plant mixture of up to 14 species > "comes
> out 6 to 16 times better than corn grain ethanol or biodeisel [sic] ."
> www.vnps.org/chapters/princewilliam/wildnewsjanfeb07.pdf

Doesn't hrvesting prairie plants for conversion to ethanol result in serious
organic matter and accompanying soil microflora depetion in those soils?

LL



------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 15:19:04 -0500
From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <lfl@intrex.net>
Subject: [permaculture] Meet With Lighting, Photographs by Sean Hsieh
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <45BA6238.3000307@intrex.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed

This may be the best outdoor photography I have ever seen.
It is work of epic proportions.

especially see the daylilly fields (mountainsides)

Meet With Lighting
Photographs by Sean Hsieh
http://www.pbase.com/sean5834
--
Lawrence F. London, Jr.
Venaura Farm
lfl@intrex.net
http://market-farming.com
http://market-farming.com/venaurafarm
http://venaurafarm.blogspot.com/
http://www.ibiblio.org/ecolandtech




------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 12:27:49 -0800 (PST)
From: roxy6c <roxy6c@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] permaculture spirituality
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <102393.89331.qm@web30212.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1


The "domination" or colonization practice and memeplex
is a direct result of agriculture. Agriculture creates
a surplus which leads to a population increase, which
in turn requires annexation of new land to provide
more crops to feed the population. In an economic
system based on constant growth (like our current
one), you must expand or face collapse. Like Toby
said, populations that do not practice agriculture do
not have these practices and memes. Check out Jared
Diamond's "Guns Germs & Steel" for a theory of why
Eurasians were more successful at colonization.

Organized religion (Judao-Christian, Islam, Buddhist,
Confucian) works well as a control mechanism for
agriculture, by setting people up to expect a life of
toil and/or giving them a justification for expansion
through holy wars or converting heathens. The latter
worked especially well under Christianity, but farmers
stamped out most of the "pagans" long before the
Christians arrived.

My personal opinion is that most New Age stuff out
there is not really land or community based, but more
about self-gratification, and so does not interest me
much. I've met too many newagers who've waxed poetic
about things like "the spirit of the bear", without
ever having encountered a real bear in their lives or
understanding the nature of the animal. If people are
out there strengthening their communities and
developing their own specific land-based
spiritualities, then more power to them. But I haven't
seen that very often.





--- Don Titmus <ujgs2@4dirs.com> wrote:

Interesting!
What culture or religion have not consumed another !
Or better yet adopted
another for better (or worse)
Christians could not stamp out the "Pagans" and so
adapted by blending one
faith "Holi-day" into another.

There are no patents on symbology...they are of the
earth.

It doesn't matter if You believe in "Creation or
Evolution" WE all come from
the "One"

We are All Cousins, We are All related

Don
"Care of the Earth (the whole and all its beings),
Care of the People, Share
the Resources"

Multi-Spiritual and proud to be a part of the whole.


----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Cereghino" <paul.cereghino@comcast.net>
To: "permaculture" <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Friday, January 26, 2007 11:28 AM
Subject: Re: [permaculture] permaculture
spirituality


> And then there are groups of white people
borrowing American Indian
> religious motifs (after borrowing their land). I
personally find
> elements of New Age subcultural beliefs as
challanging to digest as
> elements of evangelical christain beliefs. And I
would suggest that
> christian practice can also feed the whole
mind-body-spirit, just as a
> 'New Age' practice, purporting to be whole, can
fail to do so.
> Two-edged swords everywhere you look. In my gut,
I don't see
> incorporation of permaculture into sub-cultural
cosmologies as beneficial.
>
> The 'New Age' subculture is looking for unitary
philosophical phenomena
> much like other evangelical faith-based
communities. And with slight
> adaptation, permaculture can be presented as a
unitary all encompassing
> philosophy. However I think this is a subcultural
phenomena. I would
> suspect that this list does NOT reflect a cross
cutting demographic
> (referencing the esteemed mr. London's
'mainstream' comments earlier),
> and that keeping Permaculture free and clear 'New
Age' cultural
> influences, is as critical to its expansion in
America as building a
> legitimate connection to the scientific community.
As MLK used to
> say... keep your eye on the prize.
>
> Toby, I like your last question... the correlation
between 'new age
> flavor' and permaculture is important.
>
> Paul Cereghino
>
>>Toby and all,
>>
>>re Any other theories as to why Pc gatherings and
courses often have a New
>>Age flavor?
>>
>>We are of the Earth and cannot seperate ourselves
from it and every thing
>>around us. We seem to forget We (humans) are
animals too !!! As PCers we
>>design relationships, connections, and guilds into
every part of our
>>homesites. We therefore cannot seperate ourselves
from Spirit (God/dess,
>>Great Spirit, Creator et al).
>>
>>The "New Age" folks get this better than some of
the other "religions" and
>>being open to spirit they may adopt a "Findhorn"
practice in the garden.
>>Or
>>practice Feng Shui, or any other spiritual
practice that Feeds the Whole -
>>body. mind, Spirit.
>>
>>Don
>>
>>
>>----- Original Message ----- >>From: "Toby Hemenway" <toby@patternliteracy.com>
>>To: "permaculture list"
<permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
>>Sent: Thursday, January 25, 2007 8:57 PM
>>Subject: Re: [permaculture] permaculture
spirituality (was: Message from
>>thecurrent President)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>On 1/24/07 6:51 PM, "Tracie Boellner" wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Too many points to respond to that really aren't
relevant to this list,
>>>>so I
>>>>won't bore anyone with it. My apologies for
posting my original
>>>>response
>>>>to
>>>>the list. It was a kneejerk reaction, and I
should have kept it to
>>>>myself.
>>>>
>>>>Still searching for the facts,
>>>>Tracie in Michigan
>>>>----- Original Message -----
>>>>
>>>>
>>>Actually, I want to thank Tracy for posting her
response. Mollison has
>>>been
>>>very emphatic about trying to build that "wall of
separation" between
>>>permaculture and any specific spiritual belief
system. He, and a lot of
>>>others (myself included) feel that connecting Pc
with a particular set of
>>>spiritual beliefs, while strengthening its appeal
to that group, would
>>>diminish its ability to be universally adopted by
those with other
>>>beliefs.
>>>But there has gotten to be a fairly strong link
between Pc and
>>>Earth-based
>>>or New Age spirituality. I've met plenty of
permaculture practitioners
>>>who
>>>are devout Christian, Jewish, or other faiths,
but rarely do they
>>>explicitly
>>>express permaculture in spiritual terms. But I've
been to plenty of Pc
>>>gatherings that are strongly pagan/wiccan/New
Age. (full disclosure: I'm
>>>pantheist/Buddhist myself, if I've gotta give a
name to it). Starhawk's
>>>Earth Activist Training, for example, is a Pc
certification course that
>>>is
>>>strongly imbued with Earth-based spirituality. I
don't know of any
>>>Christian
>>>or Jewish PDCs. So why has Pc become linked with
New Age beliefs?
>>>
>>>The light went on with Tracy's post. If you'll
pardon my returning to my
>>>horticulture/agriculture theme: Horticultural
societies, according to
>>>anthropologists, tend to view all of nature as
imbued with spirit. For
>>>them,
>>>God is in the rocks, the water, the plants. In
most cases, a different
>>>(but
>>>ultimately interlinked) spirit is responsible for
each place, each
>>>element,
>>>each plant. Agricultural societies, on the other
hand, tend to see spirit
>>>as
>>>coming from someplace out of this physical world,
usually a sky god or
>>>set
>>>of gods not connected with a particular place on
Earth. Permaculture is
>>>an
>>>attempt to create a contemporary horticultural
society; at least that how
>>>I'm thinking of it these days. So although it can
appeal to a wide
>>>variety

=== message truncated ===




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End of permaculture Digest, Vol 48, Issue 52
********************************************




  • Re: [permaculture] permaculture Digest, Vol 48, Issue 52, Ken Beer, 02/05/2007

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