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permaculture - Re: [permaculture] permaculture Digest, Vol 48, Issue 13

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  • From: Paul Cereghino <paul.cereghino@comcast.net>
  • To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
  • Subject: Re: [permaculture] permaculture Digest, Vol 48, Issue 13
  • Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2007 14:16:13 -0800

I wonder if the value of manure in methane digestion is that nitrogen stimulates bacterial activity that produces more heat than anaerobic metablism in the absence of a oxidizer like nitrate (carbon chains make for very inefficient metabolism... iron compounds, nitrate, sulfate all provide for efficient oxidation in the absence of oxygen). The heat byproduct from nitrogen metabolism stimulates the biological processes that result in methanogenesis. You don't NEED nitrogen, but it makes the whole thing go faster. With the chip pile, you don't need for heat from nitrogen loving microbes to make the thing go. Just a theory based on principles.. but it sounds good.
Paul, Olympia, WA

Saor Stetler wrote:

What I have taken away from readings of accounts of Pain's work is that he was producing methane without the use of animal waste; that the methane was derived entirely from the "forest thicket compost" itself. If anyone can refute that methane is absolutely not obtainable from wood products as the base source of the methane, (and not merely for the heating of animal wastes) this would put the issue to rest.

Sources of methane

Natural gas fields

The major source of methane is extraction from geological deposits known as natural gas fields <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_gas_fields>. It is associated with other hydrocarbon <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrocarbon> fuels and sometimes accompanied by helium <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helium> and nitrogen <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitrogen>. The gas at shallow levels (low pressure) is formed by anaerobic <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anaerobic_organism> decay <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decay> of organic matter <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organic_matter> and reworked methane from deep under the Earth's surface. In general, sediments buried deeper and at higher temperatures than those which give oil <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petroleum> generate natural gas.


Alternative sources

Apart from gas fields an alternative method of obtaining methane is via biogas <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biogas> generated by the fermentation <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fermentation_%28biochemistry%29> of organic matter including manure <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manure>, wastewater sludge, municipal solid waste, or any other biodegradable feedstock, under anaerobic conditions. Methane hydrates/clathrates (icelike combinations of methane and water on the seafloor, found in vast quantities) are a potential future source of methane. Significant quantities are also produced by cattle <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cattle> -- not by flatulence <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flatulence>, as in common myth, but 95% through belching <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burp>[2] <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methane#_note-1>[3] <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methane#_note-2>. The livestock sector in general (primarily cattle, chickens, and pigs) produces 37% of all human-induced methane"[4] <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methane#_note-3>.

Industrially, methane can be created from common atmospheric gases and hydrogen (produced, perhaps, by electrolysis <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrolysis>) through chemical reactions such as the Sabatier process <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabatier_process>, Fischer-Tropsch process <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fischer-Tropsch_process>. Coal bed methane extraction <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coal_bed_methane_extraction> is a method for extracting methane from a coal <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coal> deposit.



permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org wrote:


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Today's Topics:

1. Methane, was Final Draft of Mother Earth News Petition
(John Fritz)
2. Re: oil stove and fansaur (Phil Vergamini)
3. regarding food fermentation (liz bell)
4. Re: Jean Pain (Keith Johnson)
5. 1983 Bill Mollison PDC DVD of MP3's (darren@permaculture.biz)
6. Fwd: Permaculture News (darren@permaculture.biz)
7. Rural areas embrace grocery cooperatives - Yahoo! News
(Lawrence F. London, Jr.)
8. Arcosanti (Lawrence F. London, Jr.)
9. Re: Arcosanti (KNat)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2007 09:37:20 -0800 (PST)
From: John Fritz <johnfritz77@yahoo.com>
Subject: [permaculture] Methane, was Final Draft of Mother Earth News
Petition
To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Message-ID: <20070109173720.48161.qmail@web31214.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1

Perhaps you are right and I missed the part where an animal waste methane digester was
placed inside the compost pile. What I have taken away from readings of accounts of
Pain's work is that he was producing methane without the use of animal waste; that the
methane was derived entirely from the "forest thicket compost" itself. If
anyone can refute that methane is absolutely not obtainable from wood products as the
base source of the methane, (and not merely for the heating of animal wastes) this
would put the issue to rest. I must say that I would be disappointed if this were the
case, but it would advance the discussion about retrieving accounts of Pain's
accomplishments for the English speaking community.
John Fritz, NW Arkansas.
Message: 3
Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2007 19:48:30 -0800
From: Paul Cereghino <paul.cereghino@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Final Draft of Mother Earth News Petition
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <45A3108E.6010401@comcast.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

My reading of the November 2000 Permaculture Activist article explicitly said that Pain did not focus on detailing how he extracted methane
from the compost.

Based on the accounts I have read, the methane is not derived from the compost, but rather a methane digester was imbedded in the pile to take advantage of compost heat to maximize the rate of methanogenesis. The primary function of the pile was production of heat (for hot water) and organic matter for farming, with enhancement of methane production as a supplemental yield.




Nor have I seen any explanation of this elsewhere.



Methane digestion technology is widely distributed. Google "methane digester small-scale" or other such combination; for example:
http://www.habmigern2003.info/biogas/Baron-digester/Baron-digester.htm (pulled out of the virtual hat).



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Message: 2
Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2007 11:48:00 -0700
From: Phil Vergamini <phil@inetserv.com>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] oil stove and fansaur
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <p06230901c1c98399be43@[192.168.1.2]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"

Mitch-
Check out the Stirling engine stove fan at: http://www.thermalengines.com/tech.html

This is my second winter with a HeatWave Wood Stove Fan and I find it to be an excellent device for producing an even temperature in the house. You don't have to be a stove-stander to be comfortable. I don't think you could find a better device for your stove. I'm really sold on it.

Most wood (or other) stove fans generate electricity via a thermoelectric device at the base (in contact with the stove) which then drives the electric fan. This conversion from heat to electric to fan motion is inefficient in comparison to the highly efficient Stirling engine driven device which produces the fan motion directly
from the heat. The Stirling engine converts heat directly to the

motion needed to move the warm air from your stove to where you want and need it. It is an external combustion engine. If you want more information about the Stirling engine, a quick search with your browser (google or your favorite), will open your eyes to many options. I believe the Stirling engine is a wave of the future and has unlimited alternative energy possibilities from solar, to utilizing any form of excess heat, to replacing the gasoline engine in the plug-in Prius.

Check it out-

-Phil


At 7:00 PM +0200 1/6/07, Mitchell & Orit Schertz wrote:



We have an oil stove and would like to know if anybody
out there is aware of a device that one would place over the stove and via the heat generated would power a fan such that the hot air would better circulate throughout the room

Thanx
Mitch Schertz
(mitchell.schertz@gmail.com)
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