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  • From: "Kathleen Evans" <evansdk@earthlink.net>
  • To: "permaculture" <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
  • Subject: Re: [permaculture] Food Not Lawns book
  • Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2006 18:35:07 -0500

Keith, Toby, Heather, Jim, everyone, I think at least in part all this goes
to the very heart (rather, lack thereof) of email, esp. group email with
people you may have never met. In real discussions, you can see a puzzled
look, a sparkle in someone's eye, you might make a disgruntled comment
under your breath, you might say something jokingly, or passionately, or
tentativlely, and if you are misunderstood or say something you wish you
hadn't said, there is immediate feedback and you can clean it up--even on
the phone you can hear a tone of voice and you know right now if you are
communicating. Each word carries equal weight and seems to hover in
cyberspace more or less separate from the soul it came from. It seems to
serve us regarding conveying basic information...what, when, and where, but
it is very difficult to express personal opinion without this sort of thing
happening from time to time. I often wonder what is lost and what is gained
when we lose the experience of face-to-face communication. I wish all these
good people forgiveness and communication. And why don't y'all hitch up
your horses and come to my house for soup tonight? Bring instruments?


Kathy Evans
evansdk@earthlink.net



> [Original Message]
> From: Keith Johnson <keithdj@mindspring.com>
> To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Cc: Jim <ashevillecurrencyproject@gmail.com>; Toby Hemenway
<toby@patternliteracy.com>; Heather C. <foodnotlawns@yahoo.com>; Peter Bane
<pcactivist@mindspring.com>
> Date: 10/13/2006 5:42:08 PM
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] Food Not Lawns book
>
> I clearly have more apologizing to do. I already did on the list and in
> person to Jim, but I'm not done yet.
>
> Toby, and Heather,
>
> The internet brings to crystalline clarity the concept of instant karma.
> Feedback is very instantaneous...my public venting very powerfully came
> back and kicked me in the ass. So now I'm kicking my own. The line forms
> here. (Humility, I'm finding, is something that requires learning and
> relearning.)
>
> I truly wish for Heather's book to succeed and sell many copies if it
> gets people gardening. I'm disappointed, naturally, that permaculture
> got dismissed by her so publicly, but hopefully most readers will get to
> the meat of the book and actually replace their lawns with food. That
> would be a HUGE blessing to the planet. If mass numbers of people DON'T
> do this, we're in deep trouble. I've tried my best to do that in every
> place I've lived and it's what I want to see happen in my own
> neighborhood. That's why I'm undoing my own newly acquired lawn here in
> Bloomington.
>
> As far as the certificate, I'm reminded that George W said of the
> Constitution of the US, that, "it's just fucking piece of paper", and so
> is the supremely less literate Permaculture certificate. Nevertheless
> that little piece of paper recognizes the sacrifice (to make sacred) of
> time, energy, and money that thousands of people have invested to
> immerse themselves in the remarkable experience that is the design
> course. It has deeply changed my own and many people's lives in profound
> ways. I don't think most of us who have taught it, or attended it, would
> argue with that (even though a very small number of my own students
> might have different opinions, I still bless them and wish them
> happiness and a good life.)
>
> I'm certain that if I were to join Heather in the garden, we'd have a
> glorious time together despite our differences of opinion, because the
> things we agree upon FAR outweigh the things we disagree upon. I
> suspect, too, that we'd each be forgiving of the other and have a good
> time anyway since our motives, intention, and love correspond.
>
> Heather's love and dedication to food abundance and healthy communities
> far outshine her attitude toward permaculture. (I'm reminded here of
> Akiva Werbalowsky who, in the war ravaged middle East and with missiles
> overhead, struggles to be heard on the listservs AND maintain his sense
> of humor while doing the best he can to regreen Israel.)
>
> When it comes right down to it, Heather's book IS about permaculture,
> reflecting to no insignificant degree Toby's effectiveness and
> commitment as a teacher and mentor. For that I am profoundly grateful.
> May you both go on to inspire many, many more.
>
> Let me personally and publicly offer praise and thanks to Heather for
> all the good work she has done. Treading on people's toes is the risk we
> all take when we step out and stand up for our principles. If one of my
> own students wrote her book, my pride would certainly overbalance my
> annoyance.
>
> Please pardon me. Your blessings would be much appreciated.
>
> I apologize, too, to the rest of the list for so casually, and
> uninformedly dissing someone who's intent is simply to serve (it takes
> one to know one). There are times when it's better to remain silent and
> to reserve one's comment and opinion. This was one of them.
>
> Humbly,
> Keith
>
>
>
> Toby Hemenway wrote:
> > On 10/13/06 8:57 AM, "Keith Johnson" <keithdj@mindspring.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Jim wrote:
> >>
> >>> I'm getting a review copy, courtesy of Michael Weaver. I hope I don't
> >>> find the same thing as you, but have a nervousness that I might. Don't
> >>> quote me.
> >>>
>
> > Ethics check! Mass-forwarding something when the author has said, "don't
> > quote me." And why? To bad-mouth someone. Keith, since you've gone
public
> > with this, I'm forwarding my reply to Heather, too, since I'd hate for
it to
> > be behind her back.
> >
> > One thing I've learned about being an author is that by freezing your
> > thoughts in printed words, it makes you a target for everyone who has a
> > different opinion or experience, people who in a more conscious world
would
> > take the effort to see beyond their own viewpoint.
> >
> > Sure, I read the book. I didn't see the point in quibbling about 2
> > paragraphs I didn't like, since they were opinion rather than factual
error.
> > She's got a lot of company in believing that the PDC is expensive and
> > exclusive, even if I don't share those beliefs. It's up to us to prove
that
> > she's wrong. She supports her case in her own way by offering low-cost
> > classes, which is hard to argue with. I disagree with Heather's opinions
> > about permaculture relative to financial gain, and I know she's going to
> > take a lot of flack about them. She's from the anarchist community and I
> > think most of us understand that some anarchists have strong reactions
to
> > charging money for things; that somehow it corrupts the things being
charged
> > for. But she's got a right to her opinion. I think the rest of the book,
> > outside of those two paragraphs, is good.
> >
> > And I do agree with her that the permaculture certificate, at least in
the
> > US, is a fairly worthless piece of paper. What percentage of PDC grads
have
> > actually used it to get a job or for other real benefit, compared to,
say, a
> > bachelor's degree or even a massage license? No one has ever asked about
> > mine. When PDC grads claim it makes them a "certified permaculture
> > designer," they are mistaken. All it certifies is that you took a PDC.
Read
> > the thing! Mollison and the Institute say it makes you a "permaculture
> > design trainee," not a designer, and that two years of further work are
> > needed. We've been incredibly negligent and not of service to our
students
> > by failing to take the time to make the certificate worth something
through
> > accreditation or creating a teaching body the way thousands of other
> > certifying organizations have. With no accreditation or functional
> > permaculture organizations behind the certificate (in the US), its only
> > value is to those who are blindly impressed with pieces of paper, or as
> > proof that you took your PDC, if your were lucky enough, from a
well-known
> > teacher. And only the permaculture cognoscenti are going to recognize
the
> > instructors' names, anyway. The PDC itself is of immense value, but the
> > certificate doesn't mean much to those outside our community. Heather's
just
> > pointing out an obvious truth there. And those who point out the
emperor's
> > nakedness are never popular.
> >
> > Let me correct Keith's speculations about Heather's character and
experience
> > and try to balance the selective use of quotes from her book.
(Disclaimer: I
> > know Heather quite well and have a very high opinion of her.)
> >
> > Heather took a PDC from me and Jude Hobbs about 7 years ago. She
organized
> > the course herself and arranged a grant from the city to fund all 25
> > students, who were from a low-income neighborhood. She founded Food Not
> > Lawns in Eugene, Oregon, a group that transformed many lawns into
> > food-producing polycultures, and created a great permaculture site in a
city
> > park. They had held workshops, seed and plant sales, and built
demonstration
> > sites. She spent several years living on a large commercial organic farm
> > outside of Eugene, developing some pretty sophisticated systems on the
farm
> > and elsewhere. She's done cutting-edge work on integrating dance,
music, and
> > movement into permaculture design. She's one of the most vigorous and
> > successful activists I know and has a deeper understanding of
permaculture
> > than many I encounter. She walks her talk by making courses available
for
> > very little money, and does a huge amount of free work as well. So
she's got
> > plenty of experience. She's also one of those people who pops out about
15
> > ideas a minute, and I suppose that may strike some people as being
"spacey."
> > As for being young, I think she's about 30. She has guest-taught my
> > university permaculture class and was roundly loved by my grad
students. I
> > can highly recommend her as an instructor; she's also a blast to be
around.
> >
> > She is very strongly opinionated and has tread on few toes. That's the
price
> > of having a clear vision. Mollison isn't exactly a sweet little old guy,
> > either. Keith, it sounds like you've discouraged someone from having
Heather
> > teach, recommending instead one of your buddies, when you don't know
> > anything about Heather beyond a couple of paragraphs you disagree with.
> > Sure, some of what's in her book is available elsewhere if you want to
dig
> > through a couple of dozen other sources, but you could make the same
claim
> > about some of my book too. So let's not go black-balling people because
they
> > don't share our ideas about how much the PDC should cost.
> >
> > For others, get the book and decide for yourself.
> >
> > Toby
> > http://patternliteracy.com
> >
> > On 10/13/06 8:57 AM, "Keith Johnson" <keithdj@mindspring.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> >> Jim wrote:
> >>
> >>> Hmmm. I've gotten some red flags when talking with Heather-- a little
> >>> bit of spaciness that worried me.
> >>> I'm getting a review copy, courtesy of Michael Weaver. I hope I don't
> >>> find the same thing as you, but have a nervousness that I might. Don't
> >>> quote me.
> >>>
> >> Our impression was that she was very young and inexperienced, overly
> >> opinionated, and depended almost entirely on OTHER people's work. We
all
> >> rest on the shoulders of those who have gone before, but....
> >>
> >> To quote her, "...much of the Permaculture movement is based on a
desire
> >> for personal gain, rather than a deep ecological altruism".
> >>
> >> Also, " ...while Permaculture /teaches/ a whole-system approach that
> >> includes the larger ecological community, the permaculture I have seen
> >> in /practice/ tended to lack emphasis on taking designs beyond the
> >> suburban homestead."
> >>
> >> Also, "...the term /permaculture/ has become something of a commodity,
> >> used to entice people into paying exorbitant prices for "certification
> >> courses" when such important information should be made accessible to
> >> any who would choose to learn it....most of those high-priced
> >> certificates are just photocopied pieces of paper, signed by the
> >> instructors themselves. "
> >>
> >> Clearly she hasn't SEEN much permaculture. Like the folks Toby talked
> >> about, who, when they didn't see many annual vegetable gardens at the
Pc
> >> Inst in Hawaii, and overlooked the hundreds of perennial food plants
all
> >> around them, concluded that application of permaculture was failing.
> >>
> >> And Toby endorsed the book! I wonder if he read those parts.
> >>
> >> So, I ask you all, IS that all permaculture is? I don't think so.
> >>
> >> Despite the rest of the book being useful and practical, even sounding
> >> like what Permaculture recommends, most is available elsewhere and
> >> already in print.
> >>
> >>> If the book is not up to snuff, then I'll withdraw my invite to her.
> >>> It would be a shame if Chelsea chose the wrong author to invest their
> >>> time and money with. Thanks for the heads up.
> >>>
> >> Have Chuck Marsh teach it, or one of the many good gardeners in
Asheville.
> >>
> >>> Best,
> >>> Jim Barton
> >>>
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > permaculture mailing list
> > permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> >
> >
>
> --
> Keith Johnson
> Permaculture Activist Magazine
> PO Box 5516
> Bloomington, IN 47408
> (812) 335-0383
> http://www.permacultureactivist.net
> also Patterns for Abundance Design & Consulting
> also APPLE-Bloomington (Alliance for a Post-Petroleum Local Economy)
> It's a small world after oil.
>
>
>
> --
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