permaculture

[Stephanie Gerson <sgerson@stanfordalumni.org>]

Oops, sorry for the 3rd email from me in 8 minutes

Remind me to read all posts next time before replying ;)

Anyways, seems like we went through the trajectory of the old list in 
approximately 83.257 hours.  I guess we had to relive those old issues, 
old sores, and old saws in order to transition into the new list.

Thanks Dennis, I'm with you.  I even used your suggested heading in the 
subject line.  

must be that mischevious full moon...
*s


------ Original Message ------
Received: 07:13 PM PST, 03/25/2005
From: Dennis Argall <dennisargall@bigpond.com>
To: International Permaculture List <Permaculture@openpermaculture.org>,      
  
permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>Cc: 
Subject: [Permaculture] new list, old issues, old sores, old saws

Can I make several observations as a person without involvement in the 
politics of permaculture and without ambition for such - or for other 
than to practise sustainable living and global citizenship.

[1] It seems to me that there has been an overall embitterment of 
discussion in many areas of the internet, on many subjects, since 9/11. 
Much of this comes from the United States - perhaps also related to the 
percentage of normal volume of internet traffic coming from the US, but 
it seems to me, round here at the top front of the world in Australia, 
that there is more to it than traffic volume.

[2] The first way out of embitterment is to speak positively, even and 
especially in response to bitter speech. The second way is to try to 
deal with issues, not personalities. Taking care to do that, even when 
offended, builds community.

[3] The concept of 'ownership' of a discussion is inappropriate. A 
discussion, to be healthy, needs to belong to all who participate, if 
it is to be valued and sustained by all. The discussion is the sum and 
interaction of contributions, the intellectual property of each 
participant.

[4] Internet discussion can be free-wheeling, facilitated, or moderated 
(approved/edited, etc) to various degrees.

[5] The deterioration of SANET-MG over recent years illustrates the 
problem of a group which has no facilitator, no guide, and falls into 
the hands of people who perhaps have the wrong ratio of time spent on 
the net to time spent in fresh air. This problem could be resolved, in 
my view, by a moderating or facilitating hand to bring about a more 
positive environment.

[6] I was conscious of a problem, when recent tensions burst out in 
permaculture discussion, that Larry L had compromised prospect of a 
facilitator or moderator role for himself by having himself jumped into 
discussion with strong views and manner of expression. I know as a 
facilitator/moderator elsewhere that it is hard to get the balance 
right, especially when called upon to settle things down on an issue 
where one has strong feelings oneself. ..... The situation becomes 
entirely unattractive when list moderation is carried out in a somewhat 
Argentinian fashion, with people becoming 'disappeared' secretly. 
Removing people from a group is a last resort and is something that 
ought to be open and sensed as fair by most when it happens; also 
subject to appeal.

[7] I find it disappointing that the NEW list has promptly become a 
scene of reruns of ad hominem arguments as in the old list - Yes, it 
does tend to be ad hominem, not ad feminem   :-)

[8] Each or either of these lists needs sensible policies on fair 
speech and conduct and sensible facilitation by people who are 
determined to be facilitators of discussion. Such facilitation needs to 
start from the basis that everyone here tends to write sincerely and 
with a view that what they say is right and well-timed. Empathy, 
courtesy (and empathy) and mutual regard (and empathy) are essential. 
Without such, no 'permanent culture'.

[9] Unless there is a view that permaculture is another fundamentalism, 
having more than one group is not a sin; each may over time evolve 
distinct character built around the pattern of participation.

[10] the management and enhancement of discussion may be better handled 
if there were some guidelines for headers of subject lines - Can I 
suggest headers like these below, the intention being two-fold:
- first, to encourage people to write in a way which has focus and 
maximises prospect of response;
- second, to allow me to skip discussions I have no desire to be part 
of, but which are turning up now under enticing subject headings.

sincerely

Dennis
www.aplaceof.info
====
Someone may have a simpler format, these are my suggestions for subject 
headers:
NOTICE:
e.g. NOTICE: Tundra designers course, Nome, August
e.g. NOTICE: Ecovillage gathering, Kiev, September.
e.g. NOTICE: tomatoes for sale, also 100 acres + house in Maui

CURRICULUM:
e.g. CURRICULUM: must we stick to French Mollisonian standards?

CONCEPTS:
e.g. CONCEPTS: "The Emerald City Guidebook: Ithaca 2030"
e.g. CONCEPTS: holistic visions revisited.

  BUILT:
e.g. BUILT: Relative merits of straw bale and mud wall?

GROWING:
e.g GROWING: wot growz with black walnuts?

ECOLOGY:
ECOLOGY: what are they doing to my favorite pond!

CHALLENGES:
e.g. CHALLENGES: Third world advising opportunities.


_______________________________________________
Permaculture mailing list
Permaculture@openpermaculture.org
http://openpermaculture.org/mailman/listinfo/
permaculture_openpermaculture.org




+++++++++++++++
Stephanie Gerson
sgerson@stanfordalumni.org
(c) 415.871.5683


____________________________________________________________________