permaculture

[Scott Pittman <pci@permaculture-inst.org>]

permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org wrote:
Greg wrote:

> Scott,
>
> There are also the people that have been booted from the list for 
> expressing their opinions (Michael being one of them, did you know he 
> is no longer on this list), and the posts that never make it to the 
> list (I have several).  I was banned from the list for years, for a 
> super silly reason.


I'm sorry to hear that Michael was unsubscribed and I will talk to Larry 
London about that highhandedness.

> I might add that you could go back and check the threads that got 
> Michael rejected from the list.  I think that you will find that it 
> was not Michael's posts that got him ejected but the responses of 
> others that did it.
>
> Greg


I think that Larry has a temper that  easily  boils over  when he thinks 
that  his idea of what is permacualture is challenged.  This isn't the 
first time this disagreement over curriculum has come up;  I think it is 
an annual rite of passage and I think it is instructive and helpful for 
everyone to put in their two cents.
I've certainly never been shy about my ideas and convictions.

> > Hi Scott-
> >
> > It really depends on what lens you are using.  Some like yourself may 
> > see creating a new list as a "divisive move" where as others like 
> > myself might see it as creating new opportunities for more people to 
> > communicate freely.
> >
> > No intention here to divide though that may be an unknown benefit. In 
> > fact there is a big intention to create something new and positive.  
> > Anyone is free to choose whatever they want to do.  You too.  The 
> > invitation remains open.
I find this a bit disingenious, I think it is indeed a way to seperate 
the new age crowd from the unwashed crowd so that the conversation 
doesn't challange ones beliefs and interests.  I don't know you from 
Adam's all fox but I am getting an idea from your Web site and this and 
other communications.

> > I have not enjoyed this list as much in the last few months with what 
> > I perceive as immature, rehashing of the same old conversations and a 
> > lot of fighting.  This behavior is what seems the most divisive to 
> > me.  I tend to promote and attempt to engage in communications that 
> > are supportive and encouraging and in a spirit of curiosity rather 
> > than criticism.  I ain't perfect on that one and God knows I am 
> > learning as I grow.I realize we are all human and have strong 
> > opinions, old patterns of behavior and fits of anger and other 
> > passions.  Nonetheless, I and others from this list with similar 
> > desires wanted to create a fresh start and to get to discuss 
> > permaculture in peace without fear of being booted off a list or 
> > reprimanded for an unpopular or strong opinion.  That' s the hope at 
> > least. Who knows what will happen.  All depends on who shows up and 
> > how they choose to behave.  I see no reason why two or three or 
> > twenty permaculture lists can't peacefully coexist.  I am on 5 Pc 
> > lists already!  They each have a different flavor, focus and culture.
Come on this is a little too precious!  These conversations have to be 
rehashed over and over because they are about our beliefs and 
livlihoods.  Michael is talking about leaving out natural systems in 
issueing permaculture certificates, in the past it has been selling 
various iterations of snake oil using the word as a marketing tool.  I 
take serious umbrage at the many attempts to "make pc more relevant", or 
"more marketable", especially when those who make those attempts are 
unable to convincingly defend the changes they advocate before their 
peers.  There is a constant whingeing about how permaculture is not 
serving this or that special interest group, which to me shows a lack of 
imagination rather than a lack in the pedagogy of the certificate 
course.  I didn't hear reprimands but rather serious concerns about the 
proposals being offered.(Leaving out Larry London)

> > That being said I find your unfounded criticism of our Pc course 
> > interesting.  If you are wanting to examine the 15 day curriculum 
> > that Benjamin, Erik and I have developed for the SLI classes. I'd be 
> > glad to send it to you.  It does include the full 72 hours and a 
> > design project.  We do focus heavily on the Farm and Garden Design 
> > and not as much on economics and designing for catastrophe.   But 
> > it's all there.  We chose to hold it this way because of the Solar 
> > Living Institution's established 5 day format and their on site 
> > mini-farm.  We thought it beneficial to have the course happen over 
> > different seasons.
A careful reading of your web page which states a certificate for 
attending three workshops, and then the description of what is offered 
in those workshops is what I based my criticism on,  if you are offering 
the full course then you should say so.  I think that part of the 
problem is that with each generation of new teachers the course is 
truncated and eviserated of critical elements.  I can't tell you how 
many courses I know of that don't cover invisible structures, or hold 
the talent show, both of which are critical to certification. (That may 
start a whole new round of protestations)

Basically I really don't care that people find a hundred different ways 
to convey different nitches of permaculture but I care deeply when they 
issue certificates that are equivalent to the ones I issue without 
giving full value both in an economic and knowledge sense.  Why 
shouldn't I get my knickers a little twisted when someone is advocating 
devalueing my livlihood, and life work?

> > I guess your post is an example of what's been bugging me about this 
> > list.
> >
> > As you may have guessed I am in the camp that thinks there are a 
> > thousand ways to teach a permaculture course -- we all just need to 
> > get creative and experiment and teach more.
> >
> > Not looking to change your mind but maybe secretly hoping it will 
> > open a little bit
The smiley face at the conclusion of your sentence that intimates my 
closed mindedness is a maddening example of the kind of passive 
agressive behavior that will keep me in that "other camp" which is, at 
least, up front with its feelings.

Scott Pittman