permaculture

[Scott Pittman <pci@permaculture-inst.org>]

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> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Today's Topics:
>
>   1. Re: need P and K glutton (Paul Wheaton)
>   2. Re: Re: Re: Succession (Toby Hemenway)
>   3. Re: PDC, course format (Toby Hemenway)
>   4. where on Earth is the most permaculture happening? (Forest Garden)
>   5. Re: permie politics (Graham Burnett)
>  
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Subject:
> Re: [permaculture] need P and K glutton
> From:
> Paul Wheaton <paul@richsoil.com>
> Date:
> Wed, 9 Mar 2005 09:07:44 -0800 (PST)
> To:
> Benneth Phelps <bphelps2@lycos.com>, permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
>
> To:
> Benneth Phelps <bphelps2@lycos.com>, permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
>
>
> > A first question: are you inoculating your legumes? 
> >    
>
> Yes.
>
>  
>
> > I'm no expert, but I would think
> > this is crucial for your situation. Is your soil "alive", in good health with 
> > lots of
> > worms and microorganisms? 
> >    
>
> Not particularly.  This is something I'm trying to fix.
>
>  
>
> > Your plants won't be able to access the nutrients they need
> > if it isn't.  How low is your "low" Nitrogen?
> >    
>
> Near or at zero.
>
> In my north pasture:  5ppm or 9 pounds per acre.
> old orchard:  11 ppm
> new orchard:  4 ppm
>
>  
>
> > How high is your "high" phosphorus? 
> >    
>
> pasture:  53ppm weak bray, 95ppm strong bray
> old orchard:  151/196
> new orchard:  81/130
>
>  
>
> > What's your pH?  
> >    
>
> pasture:  5.8, 6.8 buffer index
> old orchard:  6.1/6.8
> new orchard:  6.5/7.0
>
>  
>
> > What's your organic matter? 
> >    
>
> pasture:  2.5%
> old orchard:  3.4%
> new orchard:  1.7%
>
>
>  
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Subject:
> Re: [permaculture] Re: Re: Succession
> From:
> Toby Hemenway <toby@patternliteracy.com>
> Date:
> Wed, 09 Mar 2005 09:42:08 -0800
> To:
> permaculture list <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
>
> To:
> permaculture list <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
>
>
> On 3/7/05 8:59 PM, "Michael Kramer" <MKramer@hawaii.rr.com> wrote:
>
>  
>
> > in this country these rules
> > are not recognized by many people,
> >    
> [snip] 
>  
>
> > And at this point I'm not sure we should insist on
> > maintaining a nonexistent standard simply because some of us are very
> > comfortable teaching it.
> >    
>
>  
Toby H. wrote:

> I've been on board with most of what Michael has been saying but here I'll
> disagree. I've taught with a lot of people, and everyone I've worked with
> feels a strong obligation to adhere to Mollison's format as laid down in the
> old Pc handbook; most teachers' curricula cover a nearly identical group of
> subjects. The principal exception I know of is Penny Livingston's Earth
> Activist Training done with Starhawk, which some students have commented
> gives Pc short shrift to make room for activist training and Earth
> spirituality. But in general Mollison's guidelines are adhered to pretty
> strictly in the US. I maintain the PDC standard because I find it effective
> at introducing a particular set of people to the ideas of Pc. I am
> definitely not "comfortable" with it; I hate zooming through so many
> subjects so quickly.
>
>  
Scott P. writes:

I don't know anyone who doesn't follow the basic curriculum when issuing 
a PC Certificate and if the curriculum isn't followed
I wouldn't recognize the certificates issued.  It is a disservice to 
students who think they are receiving an apple and instead are
served up a lemon.

I find it hard to understand why if someone wants to engage the Navy or 
Monsanto they don't just offer their own version of
what they think will be relevant to those groups and call it something 
else, why this insistence on it being the certification course??
My experience with both corporations and other mainstream groups is that 
they are blown away with the course and find their own way
to adapt it to their particular environment.  Most of them are being 
exposed to how natural systems for the first time and suddenly
they have so understanding what all the flap is over global warming, 
chemical agriculture, gmo and etc.  Most all of the mainstream
corporate and governmental organizations are responsible for the 
accellerating collapse of  our biosphere and with no understanding
of how the system they are destroying directly affects them and their 
children.  It is hard to get too worked up if you are walking
around in a financially secure ignorant haze.  To drop the forests, 
water cycles, weather cycles, gardening and agriculture from the
course because it isn't relevant to the Navy is like saying that peace 
is not relevant to the Navy - give me a break!

Corporate courses are and have been taught, and there are PC consultants 
who work with these groups and those I know don't leave out
natural systems, or ethics because it is uncomfortable or irrelevant 
information.  Of course corporate courses would be different and because 
they
are they should be called something that describes the offering better, 
emphasis will change but the basic knowledge is still critical to an
understanding of our proper place in relationship to the rest of the 
biosphere.


> Where I think Michael is spot on is:
>  
>
> > my primary point is that we have a design
> > course that would definitely not work for the Navy or a corporation or a
> > local government or a school,
> >    
>
> The PDC as configured now appeals to activists, back-to-the-landers,
> gardeners, and a few other limited groups. It's laughable to think that
> businesses, architects, government, developers, or most of the people who
> wield power and make decisions that affect most resource use in the world,
> would be interested in a course that focuses on tree crops, herb spirals,
> and mud buildings. And those are people we need to influence. So in this
> sense I do agree that permaculturists need to find ways of presenting the
> ideas of Pc without focusing so heavily on food production. Yes, we know
> that permanent agriculture is a key to sustainability, but when farming in
> the US is done by less than 2% of the population, a course that expresses
> many of its ideas through agriculture is not going to appeal to many. So the
> challenge is to offer permaculture courses that introduce the basic ideas in
> other ways than by garden imagery.
>
> Toby
> www.patternliteracy.com
>  
Here I have to disagree, partly because I think it is an inaccurate and 
cynical description of what the focus of the course is, and of
course Toby also knows there is much more focus on design and that the 
tree crops, herbspirals, and mud buildings are only
illustrative of the design portion.  That only 2% of the population is 
farming is a big illustration of the problem in a corporate driven
system, and the agriculture does appeal to course participants because 
it is so graphic.

The whinging about not being invited to the White House to give a 
permaculture course, is very similar to the whinging about not having
PC courses available for free.  If it is important to you then make it 
happen, don't condemn everyone else for not making it happen for you.
To my mind their is limitless opportunity out there for every stripe of 
provider the only thing lacking is the imagination to realize it.  I per-
sonally don't have any burning desire to work with the military, so I 
haven't put any energy into cultivating that relationship.  I have worked
with some corporations with mixed results, and they have never asked me 
to work for free.  I also have sliding scale and work pay arrangements
for the classes I give which has worked for me and for the students that 
attend my classes.  By and large the teaching I do is partially subsidized
by the design and consulting work I do;  If I just depended on the 
teaching I would be whingeing about not getting free rent and veggies.

Slightly more than $ .02
Scott P.

Trying to remember about the candle thing when I curse the dark!