permaculture

[Stephanie Gerson <sgerson@stanfordalumni.org>]

Regarding the course length discussion, I recommend folks read the 
"Redesigning Houston's Permaculture Design Course" article in the Spring 
2005 issue of the PC Activist.

A rose by any other name would smell as sweet.  But it would still be a 
rose, and not another flower.  However, there are many (many!) other 
flowers - and roses are not adapted to all conditions...

peace
*Stephanie

= = = 

Attached Message

Date:   Sat, 26 Feb 2005 12:02:04 -0500 (EST) 
From:   permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org 
To:     permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org 
Subject:        permaculture Digest, Vol 25, Issue 29 
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Today's Topics:

1. Re: Re: permaculture Digest, Vol 25, Issue 24 (Keith Johnson)
2. Re: Re: permaculture Digest, Vol 25, Issue 24 (Graham Burnett)
3. Re: course length (Michael Kramer)
4. remove me from list (jdalbow@tds.net)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 12:16:27 -0500
From: Keith Johnson <keithdj@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Re: permaculture Digest, Vol 25, Issue 24
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <421F5D6B.9050408@mindspring.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed

I find myself in strong agreement with Scott on this and would recommend 
that a 9 day course NOT offer a cerificate. At Earthaven we offer an 
8+day fundamentals course that is a prerequisite for an 8 day Practicum, 
upon completion of which we offer certification. I would go as far as to 
delete from the calendar any course that promised a certificate in less 
than 14 days.
Keith

Scott Pittman wrote:

>>
>> 1. Spring Texas Permaculture Class (Selwyn Polit)
>>
>> Hi folks,
>> Please spread the word.
>>
>> Permaculture Design Certification Course
>> Weekends & Saturdays, April 9 ñ June 5, 2005 in Austin, Texas
>> Attend for 1 day or the whole course
>>
>> What: 9-day course led by Dick Pierce, Selwyn Polit, and other Austin 
>> area instructors/designers, offering practical training and skills in 
>> sustainable living. We will cover design principles and technologies 
>> that you can easily apply to your home, workplace, and community to 
>> help you live well in the city or the country.
>
> While I support the spead of permaculture throught teaching, it 
> streches credulity to offer a "9" day certification course. Why not a 
> three day certification course? The course cannot not properly be 
> covered in 9 days and that is why certification courses have always 
> been different than introduction, or specialty courses that do not 
> offer certification.
>
> If you are offering the true "Certification" course then one must 
> follow the established curriculum and class hours, at a minimum. The 9 
> day course you are offering may well be a great course offering all 
> that you advertise but it should not issue the certificate of 
> permaculture design.
>
> Scott Pittman
> Permaculture Institute
> _______________________________________________
> permaculture mailing list
> permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
>

-- 
Keith Johnson
Permaculture Activist Magazine
PO Box 1209
Black Mountain, NC 28711
(828)669-6336

also Patterns for Abundance Design & Consulting
Culture's Edge at Earthaven Ecovillage
http://www.permacultureactivist.net
http://www.earthaven.org
http://www.bioregionalcongress.org





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------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 18:11:23 -0000
From: "Graham Burnett" <grahamburnett@blueyonder.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Re: permaculture Digest, Vol 25, Issue 24
To: "permaculture" <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <00f701c51b65$6a298540$7bb52252@yourllwwtqhjzx>
Content-Type: text/plain;       charset="Windows-1252"

Hi all- we give participants a (self-designed) 'certificate of
participation' following our PC introductory courses, however, this is 
NOt
the same thing as calling our course 'certificated', this should 
certainly
only be for the full 72 hour design course unless it is clear that the
'certificate' is self designed/issued.

Cheers graham

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Keith Johnson" <keithdj@mindspring.com>
To: "permaculture" <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Friday, February 25, 2005 5:16 PM
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Re: permaculture Digest, Vol 25, Issue 24


I find myself in strong agreement with Scott on this and would recommend
that a 9 day course NOT offer a cerificate. At Earthaven we offer an
8+day fundamentals course that is a prerequisite for an 8 day Practicum,
upon completion of which we offer certification. I would go as far as to
delete from the calendar any course that promised a certificate in less
than 14 days.
Keith

Scott Pittman wrote:

>>
>> 1. Spring Texas Permaculture Class (Selwyn Polit)
>>
>> Hi folks,
>> Please spread the word.
>>
>> Permaculture Design Certification Course
>> Weekends & Saturdays, April 9 ñ June 5, 2005 in Austin, Texas
>> Attend for 1 day or the whole course
>>
>> What: 9-day course led by Dick Pierce, Selwyn Polit, and other Austin
>> area instructors/designers, offering practical training and skills in
>> sustainable living. We will cover design principles and technologies
>> that you can easily apply to your home, workplace, and community to
>> help you live well in the city or the country.
>
> While I support the spead of permaculture throught teaching, it
> streches credulity to offer a "9" day certification course. Why not a
> three day certification course? The course cannot not properly be
> covered in 9 days and that is why certification courses have always
> been different than introduction, or specialty courses that do not
> offer certification.
>
> If you are offering the true "Certification" course then one must
> follow the established curriculum and class hours, at a minimum. The 9
> day course you are offering may well be a great course offering all
> that you advertise but it should not issue the certificate of
> permaculture design.
>
> Scott Pittman
> Permaculture Institute
> _______________________________________________
> permaculture mailing list
> permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
>

-- 
Keith Johnson
Permaculture Activist Magazine
PO Box 1209
Black Mountain, NC 28711
(828)669-6336

also Patterns for Abundance Design & Consulting
Culture's Edge at Earthaven Ecovillage
http://www.permacultureactivist.net
http://www.earthaven.org
http://www.bioregionalcongress.org





-- 
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 266.4.0 - Release Date: 2/22/2005

_______________________________________________
permaculture mailing list
permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture




------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 18:56:14 -1000
From: "Michael Kramer" <MKramer@hawaii.rr.com>
Subject: [permaculture] Re: course length
To: <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <004101c51bbf$87e7dc30$020aa8c0@Michael>
Content-Type: text/plain;       charset="iso-8859-1"

With all due respect, 72 hours can be divided up in many ways, and I've 
seen
and taught successful versions of the certification course in a variety 
of
formats, including a 9-day course, for 9 x 8 hours/day = 72 hours. As
teachers of biodiversity, we permies should embrace as many varieties of
certification formats as possible in order to serve our diverse students. 
In
my 15 years of teaching permaculture, the certification course has been 
run
as two-week, three-week, four-weekend, and semester-long versions, just 
to
name a few examples. While a 14-day residential course might be 
considered
"best practice" by many, this just isn't practical for many people, and 
it
certainly isn't the only way to do it.

I would also like to point out that there are no rules about 
certification
at the moment because there are no standards or people to enforce them. 
We
have the equivalent of "gentlemen's agreements" (excuse the gender
exclusivity) to teach in the way we were taught, but this is a choice. 
For
the 72-hour course as it was originally designed is certainly not the 
only
way to imagine one could become a certified permaculturist, and I mean 
this
in terms of both format and content. Why 72 hours? Why not 144? or 288? 
We
may see the logic of continuing the same model of the course just because 
it
was how we were taught or we believe it accomplishes our objectives of
assuring that students leave the course "knowing" permaculture, but there
are many other paths to such an outcome. The course is heavily weighted
towards land-based design of agricultural systems, but this is an 
arbitrary
focus and more an example of the application of permaculture design in a
particular dimension of human experience, and not the most important 
realm
to some. Would a course that focused primarily on invisible structures
suffice to earn certification? I think it could, and it might be much 
more
attractive a course for certain populations in certain locales.

I would also like to point out (again) that in the various Permaculture
Teacher Trainings I have facilitated, I have encountered many "certified"
permaculturists who barely grasped permaculture design - they were far 
more
literate on the techniques and strategies than the design process itself. 
So
perhaps this is also evidence of the need for a different, and perhaps 
more
protracted, certification process. I'm not sure how much people truly 
digest
in these intensive 72-hour courses no matter what the format, even though
I've seen quite clearly that way people are blown away by the experience
itself.

My real point is, we must think like the guild, and plant a forest full 
of
nutrient-rich educational experiences which "certify" people to apply
permaculture in whatever ways mean something to our students. Just as 
there
are many varieties of Architecture or Planning 101 in universities
throughout the world, permaculture deserves the same respect. How ironic
that our philosophy of polyculture is often taught in a monocultural way.

Michael Kramer
Permaculture Teacher Trainer
Investment Advisor


> Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 09:17:23 -0700
> From: Scott Pittman <pci@permaculture-inst.org>
While I support the spead of permaculture throught teaching, it streches
> credulity to offer a "9" day certification course. Why not a three day
> certification course? The course cannot not properly be covered in 9
> days and that is why certification courses have always been different
> than introduction, or specialty courses that do not offer 
certification.
>
> If you are offering the true "Certification" course then one must 
follow
> the established curriculum and class hours, at a minimum. The 9 day
> course you are offering may well be a great course offering all that 
you
> advertise but it should not issue the certificate of permaculture 
design.
>
> Scott Pittman
> Permaculture Institute




------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 14:04:43 +0000
From: <jdalbow@tds.net>
Subject: [permaculture] remove me from list
To: <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <200502261404.j1QE4hmM016709@outbound3.mail.tds.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

please remove me from list



------------------------------

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End of permaculture Digest, Vol 25, Issue 29


+++++++++++++++
Stephanie Gerson
sgerson@stanfordalumni.org
(c) 415.871.5683


____________________________________________________________________