permaculture

[Stephanie Gerson <sgerson@stanfordalumni.org>]

Thank you Meg and Michael for responding to my post.

And wow.  That was beautiful, Michael.  Yesyesyesyesss to everything you said.
 You offered words and thoughts that have definitely been living in my head
for a while...

So who wants to play a game?  (Since I know Michael is into games...at least
more so than lectures!)  Because this topic was initially raised by
GlobalCirclenet (or Barb, who is no longer on the list?) - why not create a
site-specific PDC for his locale, to suit his particular needs and
preferences?  GlobalCirclenet, can you please provide us with the initial
conditions?  They would be parallel to the conditions we'd read in conducting
a site assessment, as the first step of Permaculture design.  In other words,
when observing a physical landscape, we take slope, wind direction, and
drainage, among other factors, into account.  Similarly, when observing the
educational landscape, so to speak, we would take organization-al context
(which local organizations might benefit from or contribute to the PDC), cost
limitations, targeted audience (as Meg described), among other factors, into
account.  

Given the initial conditions, we could go through the Permaculture principles
- stacking functions, waste-as-resource, etc. - and apply them in the design
of a PDC specific to GlobalCirclenet and his learning community's locale,
needs, and preferences.  (And which also, bien sur, incorporates Permaculture
principles in the teaching methodology, as Michael discussed.  But in this
case, we'd be designing the logistics of the course.)  Shall we?

Or, at least, enjoy a thought experiment...

food for hmmm
*Stephanie

  







------ Original Message ------
Received: 11:27 PM PDT, 09/24/2004
From: "Michael Kramer" <MKramer@hawaii.rr.com>
To: <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Subject: [permaculture] Re: pc applied to pc education

I appreciate Stephanie and Meg bringing up the application of permaculture
to permacultlure education. As many know, this is of great interest to me. I
wrote an extensive article about it in the last Activist, and suggested
typically radical ideas: abolish required curricula, apply knowledge
immediately, feature interdisciplinary holistic and diversified content,
include the community and daily living skills as curriculum, abolish tests
and grades, abolish grade levels, allow unlimited terms of study, abolish
the lecture, facilitate freedom of expression, provide multiple role models,
de-professionalize teaching and replace the function with community mentors,
reduce class size, abolish state standards, franchise schools (independent
ownership and operations), relocate schools in community centers, involve
parents as teachers, use nature as living laboratories, make school grounds
abundant living systems, and transform schools into democratic institutions
which model civic participation (including students).

So these are permacultural strategies for the public educational system in
this country. But in looking at permaculture education, there are the same
opportunities for reform. There are some ways in which permaculture
education reflects our own principles - it's a independent movement which
lends itself to freedom of expression and context, we emphasize experiential
learning, some courses are offered at permaculture sites, we stack functions
by offering completed student designs to the owner of the course site, there
is little interest in testing or grading students, and where there are
active guilds people can immediately apply what they learn among a community
of peers and mentors.

I would also suggest that we continue to be somewhat stuck in the
traditional educational paradigm. There is still an emphasis on lecture or
at least the imparting of facts, so much so that many students forget most
of the course while concluding permaculture is the sum of techniques and
strategies rather than a design process. Curriculum content is narrowly
defined and innovation isn't usually welcome. Well-meaning people sometimes
misinterpret their own activities and teaching as permaculture and spread
this to others, which creates general confusion among members of the public.
Many communities don't have active guilds so there aren't adequate
opportunities for immediate application, and we haven't typically sought
collaborations with existing organizations to reach wider audiences. There
also aren't many advanced courses or internships so that people can more
fully explore the details of specific techniques and strategies, or ways to
come back to a course with developed or applied designs for constructive
critique.  And finally, and perhaps most importantly, it has been difficult
for permaculture people to work together effectively, despite our collective
passion for social change. People have talked about creating organizations,
structures, standards, certifications, etc, but rarely do they come to
fruition, especially without seed capital.

Permaculture education could benefit from further exploration of edges - in
teaching methods, in content, in audience, and in course design and
location. We need to create more cyclic opportunity for people to pursue
further study beyond the introductory design course - farm stays,
internships, advanced courses, study groups, guilds, barter and currency
systems, learning -to-teach opportunities (with mentors), and conferences,
fairs and expos. These webs would create a net through which people could
follow their passions and discover their internal assets. If we had advanced
permaculture business courses and/or business incubators, together with the
Permaculture Credit Union we could create permaculture enterprises as well.

But perhaps most importantly, we need to teach permaculturally, by setting
up situations in which the students can contribute (as in a guild). The days
of downloading must end and give rise to cooperative body-mind-heart
experiences through which people in our courses can experience both the
intrapersonal and interpersonal guild phenomenon first-hand. We can use case
studies of existing permaculture sites, conduct debates, use A/V, provide
seminars and discussion groups, do role plays, use drama and music, write in
journals, conduct scientific experiments, have small group and large group
projects, conduct Internet research, and yes, practice creating designs. We
can combine feminine and masculine presentation styles, cater to the diverse
learning styles of our students (kinesthetic, visual-spatial,
logical-mathematical, etc), and emphasize facilitation rather than teaching.
If we allow for a more multidirectional energy flow in our educational
experiences, if we cherish the knowledge and expertise of our students, and
if we engage the whole person in learning, it is more likely that people
will actually learn. Through this regenerative learning approach, we empower
everyone to fix nutrients into their systems upon departure from our
courses.

-----
Michael Kramer
Natural Investment Services
P.O. Box 390595
Keauhou, HI 96739

www.NaturalInvesting.com
808-331-0910
Toll-free: 888-779-1500

"Be the change you wish to see in the world."
------------------------------------------------------------------------
----- Original Message ----- 
From: <permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org>
To: <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Friday, September 24, 2004 4:21 PM
Subject: [Norton AntiSpam] permaculture Digest, Vol 20, Issue 50


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> Today's Topics:
>
>    1. It's free on the web/ was question (Meg Mullett)
>    2. Re: It's free on the web/ was question (roxann)
>    3. RE: It's free on the web/ was question (Knutson, Linda)
>    4. farms as nutrient exporters (Rain Tenaqiya)
>    5. Re: farms as nutrient exporters (Lawrence F. London, Jr.)
>    6. Re: farms as nutrient exporters (Wordgarden)
>    7. Washing up the tea cups was Re: [permaculture] It's free on
>       the web/ was question (Graham Burnett)
>    8. Who was the seed Keeper? (Sandra Beerman)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 13:01:36 -0500
> From: Meg Mullett <meg@kcnet.com>
> Subject: [permaculture] It's free on the web/ was question
> To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> Message-ID: <41546100.95E4B928@kcnet.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
>
> Stephanie wrote:
> > But getting back to my initial question, I'd really appreciate an
insightful
> > discussion about the application of Permaculture principles to
Permaculture
> > education.
> >
> > peace
> > *Stephanie
>
> Excellent post, Stephanie!  I too have been observing this discussion
> with great interest.  Even the angry stuff I have found fascinating as
> examples of how we humans communicate and express ourselves.
>
> Getting to your request for discussion of permaculture principles for
> permaculture education, here are a few of my thoughts:
>
> One of the basic principles of permaculture is observation and
> replication of natural patterns.  As to education, I feel that means we
> need to study and mimic the methods humans naturally use to learn and
> change.  Luckily, there are all sorts of resources out there on adult
> education and methods of instruction.  Here are a few tenets of adult
> education I know of that I feel are relevent to the present discussion.
>
> 1.  Repetition.  The average adult human has to hear something at least
> 6 times before it sticks.  The principle of advertising.
>
>
> 2.  The average adult human has to *do* something for at least 6 weeks
> before it sticks.  Why most diet or fitness plans fail.  Why most school
> terms are at least 6 weeks long.
>
>
> 3.  There is an "AHA!" moment, also called a "teaching moment" where
> people are more willing to be taught, or to change their behavior.  This
> moment usually occurs when the human has a problem.   People, like most
> animals, are generally resistant to change, and will only do so when the
> present system/method/product does not perform as expected.
>
> Okay.  So how does this apply to permaculture education?
>
> My personal opinion is that we should be seeking out those "AHA" moments
> and "infiltrating" at that time.  This thread has shown that several
> different people have different target audiences to whom they wish to
> bring permaculture education.  Some are aiming for urban poor, others
> small farmers, others large agribusiness, still others yuppie
> suburbanites.  Each sector is going to have different problems and will
> each need different methods of information dispersement.
>
> Here's my personal example.  I am a small farm owner.  My personal
> experiments are beginning to show me that goats and vineyards go well
> together.  Organic vineyards in the midwest require, because of fungal
> disease pressures, a great deal of vineyard cleanup in the fall, which
> the goats can do (as well as provide lots of poopy straw and hay for
> fertilization and mulching).  Goat owners are finding that most chemical
> wormers are becoming less and less effective.  Tannins found in grape
> leaves, stems and seeds have anthelmintic properties, though, and I have
> found that allowing the goats to have a few good feeds on the grapevines
> at certain times of the year is reducing my need to worm them at regular
> intervals, while not compromising the vines themselves or reducing the
> crop.  It will probably be several more years before I'm ready to
> publish any results.  I still have alot of experiments to do first.
>
> So, I've got two target audiences, goat owners and viticulturalists both
> of which are having problems, hence teachable moments.  How to best get
> the information out?  The answer to that is the question how do these
> people get most of their information already?  The answer to that is
> through their extension services, the USDA, and professional
> organizations.  All of which are closely tied to their states land grant
> universities.  So what this says to me is that I need to present my
> findings in such a way as to make the extension services, USDA, etc take
> notice.  I need to take enough notes and organize my experiments in a
> professional and scientific enough way as to hopefully merit funding for
> further study and publication of the results.
>
> THEN, the door to permaculture is opened.  Those goat farmers coming to
> visit might also notice that the goats are not our only crop.  That we
> use guinea fowl to assist with fly control.  That we rotate goats then
> pigs then vegetable crop on various areas.  Grape growers might also see
> that guineas keep down the japanese beetles, that we grow our own bamboo
> grapestakes using our recycled grey water.  That grapeskins and seeds
> make good pig food, compost and mulch.   And even Martha Stewart can
> find that chevon chops smoked over grapevines served with a heady local
> red wine is a *good thing*.
>
> And THAT'S when the word "permaculture" is said over and over (at least
> 6 times) and courses are offered (over 6 weeks) and we speak to the
> local 4H clubs, and begin to educate in permaculture.  :)
>
> So there's my big plan for permaculture education.  Study your target
> group.  Find out their problems and how they usually get information.
> Design a permaculture solution and infiltrate their usual information
> network to get the word out.  The door then opens and the "AHA"s start
> happening.
>
> Peace
> Meg in KS
>
> ps  - As to the whole cup washing story.  Really interesting.   I
> believe, though,  that that doesn't really say as much about ownership
> and/or responsibility as it does about people not liking change.  People
> didn't wash the cups without their name on it because that wasn't what
> they were accustomed to doing.  I'm quite sure that given enough time,
> they would have either come up with another system (everybody take turns
> washing all the cups, for example), or found a sharpie and rewritten the
> names and returned to the system they were used to.
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 18:26:23 +0000
> From: "roxann" <roxann@ancientearthwisdom.com>
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] It's free on the web/ was question
> To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Message-ID: <20040924182623.16206.qmail@host205.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Very interesting posts, both of ya'll!!  I love both ideas - permaculture
principles applied to education and goats/vineyard/guinea/pig combo.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Roxann
>
>    >  Stephanie wrote:
>    >  > But getting back to my initial question, I'd really appreciate an
insightful
>    >  > discussion about the application of Permaculture principles to
Permaculture
>    ---------------------------------------------
>    > Meg wrote:
> <snip> Here's my personal example. I am a small farm owner. My personal
>    >  experiments are beginning to show me that goats and vineyards go
well
>    >  together. Organic vineyards in the midwest require, because of
fungal
>    >  disease pressures, a great deal of vineyard cleanup in the fall,
which
>    >  the goats can do (as well as provide lots of poopy straw and hay for
>    >  fertilization and mulching). <snip>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 14:59:41 -0400
> From: "Knutson, Linda" <knutson@middlebury.edu>
> Subject: RE: [permaculture] It's free on the web/ was question
> To: "permaculture" <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Message-ID:
> <FD96F8047F86AC4A97A949A507B927382C85B0@mustang.middlebury.edu>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
>
> Meg in KS wrote:
>
> ps  - As to the whole cup washing story.  Really interesting.   I
> believe, though,  that that doesn't really say as much about ownership
> and/or responsibility as it does about people not liking change.  People
> didn't wash the cups without their name on it because that wasn't what
> they were accustomed to doing.  I'm quite sure that given enough time,
> they would have either come up with another system (everybody take turns
> washing all the cups, for example), or found a sharpie and rewritten the
> names and returned to the system they were used to.
>
>
> I have a different theory about the cup story.  If the cups were limited
in variability, (and why would you bother to write your name on a cup that
was unique) the participants may have been confused about who last used a
cup (including their OWN) and hesitated to pick up a cup for fear that they
would be sipping out of a cup that someone else had used.
>
> We recently had an all-day meeting at the college where I work (I am not a
professional permaculturist) there were identical cups provided for coffee
and juice in cans (all one kind).  Since we moved around a lot during the
day, I would tend to put my cup or can down and then forget exactly where I
put it.  Looking around, I was seeing several abandoned cups or cans and
didn't know which was mine or even if the others were truly abandoned -
perhaps everyone else was less scatter-brained and knew exactly which was
theirs and which was not.  Not wanting to appear profoundly stupid, I simply
got another drink.  I don't think I was the only one who was feeling like
this, because at the end of the day, the number of 'abandoned' drinks was
astounding so we had a lot of wasted resources and a lot of clean-up to do.
>
> This does not happen at my house...I don't have the same budget as the
wealthy college I work for and I have no two cups that are alike.  The small
number of identical wine glasses that I splurged for have little "charms"
around the stems - all different - and no one forgets which wine glass was
theirs anymore - used to be a big problem before I got the charms.
>
> Linda in Vermont
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 14:58:32 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Rain Tenaqiya <raincascadia@yahoo.com>
> Subject: [permaculture] farms as nutrient exporters
> To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> Message-ID: <20040924215832.4699.qmail@web40709.mail.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> It seems to me the only way to make farms sustainable is to compost
municipal sewage and send it back to the farms that support the cities.
Whether this could be achieved without fossil fuels is the question.  My
understanding of biodynamic farming is that there are no external inputs.
Is this sustainable over the long-term?  Is it possible to use deep-rooted
plants and nutrient accumulators to create a nutrient steady-state in the
agroecosystem?  Or is this just an unsustainable mining of the soil?
Whatever the answers, we need to move food around a lot less than we are
right now and adding to the local economy by growing food for others is
better than shopping at Walmart.
>
> Rain
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
> New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages!
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 19:34:18 -0700
> From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <lfl@intrex.net>
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] farms as nutrient exporters
> To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Message-ID: <4154D92A.6080806@intrex.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
>
> Rain Tenaqiya wrote:
> > It seems to me the only way to make farms sustainable is to compost
municipal sewage and
> > send it back to the farms that support the cities.  Whether this could
be achieved without fossil fuels is the question.
>
> It is unclean and unfit for farm use on food/forage/feed crops. Because
(some) people dump nasties into the sewage system,
> deliberately or in ignorance. Enter industrial ecology: reclamation of
polluted waste products using biological reclamation methods,
> bioremediation, either reclaim and recycle or safely dispose of or
neutralize risks from.
>
> > My understanding of biodynamic farming is that there are no external
inputs.  Is this sustainable over the long-term?
> > Is it possible to use deep-rooted plants and nutrient accumulators to
create a nutrient steady-state in the agroecosystem?
> > Or is this just an unsustainable mining of the soil?  Whatever the
answers, we need to move food around a lot less than we
> > are right now and adding to the local economy by growing food for others
is better than shopping at Walmart.
>
> Grow what can be grown in any particular season locally for local
distribution and consumption. Only import essentials like citrus
> and apples.
>
> Untold tons of farm wastes are * going * to * waste *. Manure, hay,
silage, other ag waste products: get it from local sources and apply it
> in maximum allowable quantities on land to be put in production; same with
rock dusts from quarries: put it on by the hundreds of tons,
> as much as soil will allow. Jump start land this way then add no more than
occasional top dressing and cover crops tilled under or sheet
> mulched from then on or as needed by market operations growing heavy
feeders.
>
> Till, extensively, once, after adding amendments, then no more or with
rarely with minimally invasive equipment.
>
> 1) Apply amendments
> 2) bottom plow, Yeomans plow, cultivate with tillage tool, rotovate
(tractor-mounted rototiller), hill and/or bed - make raised beds (46")
>     with hiller/bedder implement [Roll-A-Cone makes the best one
available].
>
> Do this once then plant and tilth/cultivate minimally, with hand tools, or
notill, for the next hundreds of years.
> Walking paths, drainage channels and water impoundment is achieved along
with bed preparation.
> 3 acres of land can be turned into productive raised growing beds within
one year this way, permanent tilth, compaction never again.
>
> I have achieved this on my land and have some of the finest garden dirt in
North Carolina. I spent longer than 12 months in preparation but
> could have done it in that amount of time.
>
> LL
> -- 
> L.F.London
> lfl@intrex.net
> http://market-farming.com
> http://www.ibiblio.org/ecolandtech
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2004 08:18:14 +0800
> From: "Wordgarden" <wordgarden@iinet.net.au>
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] farms as nutrient exporters
> To: "permaculture" <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Message-ID: <003201c4a295$96399740$d700a8c0@bigcomp>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Most of the elements in plants are Carbon (carbohydrates) extracted from
the
> air and Nitrogen (in proteins), which can also be extracted by legumes
etc.
> from the air. And most of the bulk is water. An extremely small proportion
> of the elements in
> the soils are lost as food is removed from the farm.
>
> So, yes, it is theoretically possible for farms with no external inputs to
> be sustainable.
>
> However, there is more to soil fertility than just the raw elements, as
> "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <lfl@intrex.net> wrote. It is how available
those
> elements are to the plants, and the structure of the growing medium itself
> that decides whether plants can be grown there for ever.
>
> The humic content (from compost, worms, fungi, bacteria, vegetable
material
> in the soil)
> makes the various elements available to the plants. Organic farming of all
> kinds values soil fertility over importing raw elements (such as is found
in
> synthetic fertilisers). Soil fertility can certainly be achieved by
growing
> green manures for compost or to plough back into the soil.
>
> Doing it this way needs extra time and effort to grow enough extra plant
> material to plough back
> into the soil.
>
> One advantage of applying external input is that in certain areas certain
> trace elements necessary for plant or human health are lacking. Adding ag
> wastes and rock dusts from another place can ensure a balanced supply of
> trace elements. And it is a much quicker way to increase fertility than
> growing green manure in a worn out farm. (municipal sewage should be
avoided
> unless you want to import a lot of nasties, but it has uses. It could be
> fermented for methane.)
>
>
>
> --Robert
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2004 01:56:09 +0100
> From: "Graham Burnett" <grahamburnett@blueyonder.co.uk>
> Subject: Washing up the tea cups was Re: [permaculture] It's free on
> the web/ was question
> To: "permaculture" <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Message-ID: <004701c4a29a$71fe48d0$95b02252@yourllwwtqhjzx>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> On our permaculture introductory courses with our particular venue (Dial
> House) we feel that specifiaclly 'communal' property isn't an issue, and
it
> isnt. Cups don't have names on (but tend to be quite identifiable,
> f'rinstance, I seem to have developed a connection with the cup with a
> picture of two hens on), but washing up, meal preparation, etc, just gets
> taken care of (course organisers, hosts and 'teachers' mucking in with
> everyone else) without any angst. All part of the communty
building/probelm
> solving process as far as we are concerned...
>
> Cheers Graham
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Knutson, Linda" <knutson@middlebury.edu>
> To: "permaculture" <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Sent: Friday, September 24, 2004 7:59 PM
> Subject: RE: [permaculture] It's free on the web/ was question
>
>
>
> Meg in KS wrote:
>
> ps  - As to the whole cup washing story.  Really interesting.   I
> believe, though,  that that doesn't really say as much about ownership
> and/or responsibility as it does about people not liking change.  People
> didn't wash the cups without their name on it because that wasn't what
> they were accustomed to doing.  I'm quite sure that given enough time,
> they would have either come up with another system (everybody take turns
> washing all the cups, for example), or found a sharpie and rewritten the
> names and returned to the system they were used to.
>
>
>
>
> ---
> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> Version: 6.0.756 / Virus Database: 506 - Release Date: 08/09/2004
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 8
> Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 19:18:22 -0700
> From: "Sandra Beerman" <sbeerman@tymewyse.com>
> Subject: [permaculture] Who was the seed Keeper?
> To: "permaculture" <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Message-ID: <004201c4a2a5$f00835f0$eda0f3cd@yourw04gtxld67>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Hi, I have a question and was wondering if you all could  help. In groups
through history Who was the "Seed Keeper"?
> Native Americans started out as hunter-gathers but at some point in time
turned to "farming"? How about older groups? How were the future crops seed
entrusted and to who?
> Any information you may have will be helpful.
>
> The reason I ask is as I was sorting my bean seed I noticed I had not
taken care of them as I should have, Some had mold. Witch I surely would
have been able to stop if I had made sure they were exposed to more air all
along.
> If this was the only food for my group I be in deep trouble.
>  This started me thinking about the history for seed saving, and wondering
how different groups saved seed and who was in charge.
> I'm not sure this has any thing to do with Permaculture but with out seed
I guess there would be no need for Permaculture.
> Thank for your input.  Sandie OR.
>
> ------------------------------
>
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>
> End of permaculture Digest, Vol 20, Issue 50
> ********************************************
>


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+++++++++++++++
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sgerson@stanfordalumni.org
(c) 415.871.5683


____________________________________________________________________