permaculture

[Bob Howard <rmhoward@omninet.net.au>]

tech problem:
for some reason I"ve not received any of Toby Hemenway's replies to this 
thread.Does anyone have any ideas as to why this is so? I seem to be only 
getting half of several threads but this one held particular intrest for 
me... and it's most frustrating not being able to understand what's being 
said....bob



"Gaden@ziplip.com" wrote:

> Re: Toby Hemenway - 'People Without Cash' response
>
> "So give me a break, eh?"
>
> Absolutely! Not a problem, Toby. I quite enjoyed your response. My comments 
> here are not based on continuence of previous posts. That's done and 
> closed. You raised some interesting points here, I'd like to refer to them.
>
> "by "skills and experience" I was referring to marketable skills"
>
> I didn't know that. For me, the validity of skills or experiences isn't 
> necessarily measured by its 'marketability'. But that's cool, I can see 
> where you are coming from with that interpretation.
>
> "single mothers without money often lack marketable skills....We have a 
> simple, ugly truth"
>
> Relax, I'm not trying to be confronting. Yeah I do have a difficulty with 
> that passage. It's the ease with which this statement flows from the dual 
> pre-condition of 'single mother' & 'without money" to the conclusion 'lacks 
> marketable skills'. May lack, or sometimes lack, fair enough. But often, 
> seems to presume A + B = C. Arguable causality. Sometimes true but not 
> necessarily.
>
> "Or is it that you don't think my statement is true?"
>
> And that's the crux of this whole debate, Toby. No, I don't believe there 
> is necessarily a direct causal link between wealth and skills. Yes, there 
> can be a link, but it shouldn't be assumed to be such.
>
> This simply represents a difference of opinion. Possibly one that relates 
> to us having quite different experiential backgrounds. Either way, no 
> problem. It is only a discussion, bloke.
>
> Maybe this is flogging the horse, but I'll try to give an example. I tend 
> to wander in my discussions but I'll try to keep on track.
>
> You mention what you call the 'involuntary poor' and a range of causal 
> factors. One of the things you propose that may alleviate this is 
> training/education. Sensible suggestion.
>
> Social commentators like Ivan Illich & John Taylor Gatto would argue that 
> most of what passes for education here in America is less about skilling 
> and more about social conditioning.
>
> "social engineering that condemns most people to be subordinate stones in a 
> pyramid that narrows to a control point as it ascends.  "School" is an 
> artifice which makes such a pyramidal social order seem inevitable." Gatto
>
> Achievers within such systems may be those who are most able to adapt to 
> the dominant social paradym. (know how to work the system) Some people may 
> have skillsets which are not compatible with that particular paradym. They 
> are not unskilled but they may lack what you describe as 'marketable 
> skills'. That doesn't make those skillsets irrelevant.
>
> Sometimes, the dominant social paradym changes, leaving behind an age 
> cohort whose skills are no longer compatible with the changed paradym. What 
> Alvin Toffler calls 'Future Shock'.
>
> English colonial period in India saw the widespread compulsory acquisition 
> of small traditional farms. These were aggregated into large-scale 
> monocultures with the introduction of non-traditional crop species. Highly 
> skilled micro-agraian farm managers and artisans became 'unskilled' serfs 
> within a foreign feudal system. Independance became dependance. Minimalist 
> self-sufficiency became poverty.
>
> In other instances, the failure to adapt may be behavioual. When I was 
> teaching young people within the government education system, I often came 
> across youngsters deemed to have all manner of behavioural  & social 
> problems, learning difficulties etc. The trend was to medicate them into 
> submission. Often though, they were good kids. They just didn't fit in to 
> that system.
>
> Again, it wasn't that they were unskilled (or unskillable) but that their 
> skillsets were not valued by the system. So they drifted into other 
> counter-culture systems where their skillsets did have relevance. 
> Unfortunately, many of these counter-cultures are ultimately 
> self-destructive.
>
> I don't know. Does that make my views any clearer? In all seriousness, 
> Toby, I'm not trying to headbutt you. I'm not trying to 'dis' you or paint 
> you bad. We simply have a fundamental disagreement about the causal 
> relationship between wealth (good system player) and  skills (systemic 
> relevance). Probably because we are accessing different referential pools 
> of life experiences.  I can live with that. That's cool.
>
> "...instead of anything resembling a genuine attempt, as Jamie kindly 
> suggests, to comprehend that person's meaning."
>
> Now I don't get that. Isn't that exactly what we are doing? Isn't dialogue 
> all about assertion, challange, clarification? Isn't it a 'to and fro' 
> process?
>
> In this medium, the process is becomes more drawn out because of the 
> inherent lag time between responses. And the lack of immediacy in 
> conversational feedback. Then throw in a few other communication hurdles 
> like cross-cultural communications, differing experiential backgrounds etc. 
> etc. It might get a bit confused, might get a bit contentious. But if we 
> can't make it work here, what hope in making work 'out there'?
>
> The only reason I've persisted with this thread is to allow the process of 
> dialogue to run its course. It is not a point scoring exercise. It's about 
> presenting ideas, which sometimes may appear at odds with each other. 
> That's why I posted my original response. (as opposed to silent seditious 
> offline whisperings) It was a mark of respect for you, not an obtuse 
> challenge.
>
> Social experimentation/discourse. Unity through diversity. Honouring the 
> turbulence of the edge. The edge isn't always a comfortable place, but it 
> can be productive. And rarely boring....
>
> Peace to you, Tobias
>
> Gaiden
>
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