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  • From: Mark <mpludwig@facstaff.wisc.edu>
  • To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
  • Subject: Re: [permaculture] Re: diploma in permaculture design
  • Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 16:27:36 -0500

At 12:04 PM 9/3/02 -0700, you wrote:
(I've recently returned from a month away; this thread, though old, has
returned a few times, so I'll try to add comments that have not been made)

It's curious that so many regard formal training in permaculture as
unnecessary, yet few of us would consider going to a doctor, lawyer,
architect, etc, who couldn't demonstrate any formal training--that is, who
had no certificate on the wall. And medicine and law are far simpler
disciplines than permaculture. Nor is calling yourself an MD ethical unless
you've been trained, so I don't find unreasonable Mollison and the
Permaculture Institute's stipulation that the word not be used for money by
non-course graduates. Of course, anyone is welcome to get out there and do
it for free.

If it makes you feel better Toby, its' mostly just me as far as I can tell. If one is going to be a full time PC professional, landscape architect etc. then a PDC may be a far better deal than the vast majority of folks who are PDC grads; average folks with an interest in sustainability.

But those are just technical arguments for a certificate, not reasons to
take a design course. I agree that it's challenging for someone who's well
read in Pc to justify the time and money for a PDC, which will probably
contain some familiar class material. However, here's what I've observed in
people who have learned Pc from books or other sources as opposed to those
who have done a PDC. They tend to think of permaculture:

--as techniques rather than a broadly applicable design system.

Guilty! I'm a nibbler at all manner of disciplines and use them all with total abandon. I don't see the point of waiting for the total package when one can implement small steps.

--as being principally about agriculture rather than organizations,
communities, economics, housing, energy systems, education, etc.

Not guilty. I'm also a social science graduate and repeat co-oper. IF I didn't like guns, meat and capitalism I'd be a nearly perfect crunchy granola head....

--as a collection of tools rather than a unified, whole-systems outlook.

Ecology background leads to a good understanding of this.

--as only about the aspects they want to learn about, leaving huge gaps in
their knowledge and preventing synergies.

Probably my weakest point. I'm a good designer/implementer here in the upper midwest USA, but would need some time on the ground in the tropics or arctic to do a good job. I doubt a PDC would fix this unless it was in such a setting.

Those, of course, are generalizations, and have many exceptions. But the
knowledge gained by those exceptional people who "get" Pc without a design
course usually takes years to acquire. A PDC might have been a far more
efficient way to learn, and a lot cheaper in the long run.

probably true. I just wish I got some credit for time served with mIKEL, Mark Shepard and Martin Jelenc; not to mention all that organic farming, cow milking, chicken ranching and co-oping.

Mark wrote:

> I seriously doubt anyone will change my worldview in 72 hours.

"Change your worldview" is perhaps too broad a claim. How about "Give you a
whole-systems perspective deeper than the one you have." A PDC is the most
effective way I know to gain a whole-systems view. I've seen plenty of
people in holistic fields come out of a PDC with a vastly enriched
understanding of whole systems. Also, those 72 hours are spread over 2 or 3
weeks or many weekends. So a lot of change occurs outside class hours.

I'm sure it would be fun, probably valuable too. But really, there are better uses of my vacation time than a PDC. I have actually retreated somewhat from my initial enthusiasm for PC due to what I see as a certain rigidity. I contrast this with my time working for Midwestern Bio Ag, a sustainable ag product company. They have a system too, cause quite a bit of controversy in some circles and do a great job getting folks on the path to better agriculture. But folks they are flexible and realistic. One step at a time, steady improvement, continuous effort to improve their product. PC shares some of this, granted. But the notion that one isn't doing PC without a design or a designer or whatever really rubs me the wrong way. It's just like watching the Democrats loosing their best young people to the Greens since neither group embraces the big tent anymore. We are to quick to exclude this or that rather than reaching for more folks.

But if permaculture were simply about learning some techniques, or adopting
a whole-systems view, we would have created a better world long ago: Those
techniques and views have been around a very long time.

Which leads me to the real benefit of a PDC. The whole design course is set
up to teach people how to work and communicate together. That's the
"culture" part of permaculture: humans acting together toward a shared
purpose. Some guy reading books or working alone in his yard isn't going to
learn that. We all know how many communities and projects have failed
because those involved had plenty of technical knowledge but lacked the
tools to get along. So along with those sections on soil and keyline and the
other familiar stuff you can't justify hearing again, you get tools and
exercises for working cooperatively, and experience solving the problems
that always arise when people tackle a project together, in a unified
package. I can often spot non-PDC grads based on the difficulties they have
in groups.

Sure, but really aren't their plenty of ways to get to this point? We have a good PC group going in Madison, not to mention a thriving CSA and organic farm sector. I think these are far more likely to last than contacts made at a PDC Hundreds or thousands of kilometers from your home.

The technical stuff is the easy part. If that's the principal sustainability
tool you have, you'll fare no better than the thousands of failed
intentional communities and early permaculture sites. I see far more
successes achieved by PDC graduates than by others. And I can't tell you how
many times someone shows up at a PDC claiming they "know the Manual" and
says by the end that they didn't have a clue.

I'm not saying that a PDC is absolutely necessary, just that it will
significantly increase your chances of success, and give you a nice set of
tools for applying Pc in a world of messy human relations. Plus gain a good
set of friends, and have what nearly everyone says is a transformative
experience.

Of course, I was so enthralled by my first PDC that I decided to learn how
to teach them, so I've got a bias.

Toby

Yeah and I teach PC (always with vetted co instructors so far) any time I want. I love being an anarchist and a barbarian! YE HAW! My last word on the matter? There are plenty of folks who have no idea what PC is, the vetted and the self taught all should spread the word.

_____________________________________________
For a look at my new book on ecological gardening,
Gaia's Garden: A Guide to Home-Scale Permaculture, visit
http://www.chelseagreen.com/Garden/GaiasGarden.htm





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Mark P. Ludwig
Poultry Research Lab
University of Wisconsin -Madison
608-262-1730 WK
608-846-7125 HM





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