permaculture

[Mark <mpludwig@facstaff.wisc.edu>]

At 12:04 PM 9/3/02 -0700, you wrote:
> (I've recently returned from a month away; this thread, though old, has
> returned a few times, so I'll try to add comments that have not been made)
>
> It's curious that so many regard formal training in permaculture as
> unnecessary, yet few of us would consider going to a doctor, lawyer,
> architect, etc, who couldn't demonstrate any formal training--that is, who
> had no certificate on the wall. And medicine and law are far simpler
> disciplines than permaculture. Nor is calling yourself an MD ethical unless
> you've been trained, so I don't find unreasonable Mollison and the
> Permaculture Institute's stipulation that the word not be used for money by
> non-course graduates. Of course, anyone is welcome to get out there and do
> it for free.

If it makes you feel better Toby, its' mostly just me as far as I can 
tell.   If one is going to be a full time PC professional, landscape 
architect etc.  then a PDC may be a far better deal than the vast majority 
of folks who are PDC grads; average folks with an interest in sustainability.

> But those are just technical arguments for a certificate, not reasons to
> take a design course. I agree that it's challenging for someone who's well
> read in Pc to justify the time and money for a PDC, which will probably
> contain some familiar class material. However, here's what I've observed in
> people who have learned Pc from books or other sources as opposed to those
> who have done a PDC. They tend to think of permaculture:
>
> --as techniques rather than a broadly applicable design system.

Guilty!  I'm a nibbler at all manner of disciplines and use them all with 
total abandon.  I don't see the point of waiting for the total package when 
one can implement small steps.

> --as being principally about agriculture rather than organizations,
> communities, economics, housing, energy systems, education, etc.

Not guilty.  I'm also a social science graduate and repeat co-oper.  IF I 
didn't like guns, meat and capitalism I'd be a nearly perfect crunchy 
granola head....

> --as a collection of tools rather than a unified, whole-systems outlook.

Ecology background leads to a good understanding of this.

> --as only about the aspects they want to learn about, leaving huge gaps in
> their knowledge and preventing synergies.

Probably my weakest point.  I'm a good designer/implementer here in the 
upper midwest USA, but would need some time on the ground in the tropics or 
arctic to do a good job.  I doubt a PDC would fix this unless it was in 
such a setting.

> Those, of course, are generalizations, and have many exceptions. But the
> knowledge gained by those exceptional people who "get" Pc without a design
> course usually takes years to acquire. A PDC might have been a far more
> efficient way to learn, and a lot cheaper in the long run.

probably true.  I just wish I got some credit for time served with mIKEL, 
Mark Shepard and Martin Jelenc; not to mention all that organic farming, 
cow milking, chicken ranching and co-oping.

> Mark wrote:
>
> > I seriously doubt anyone will change my worldview in 72 hours.
>
> "Change your worldview" is perhaps too broad a claim. How about "Give you a
> whole-systems perspective deeper than the one you have."  A PDC is the most
> effective way I know to gain a whole-systems view. I've seen plenty of
> people in holistic fields come out of a PDC with a vastly enriched
> understanding of whole systems. Also, those 72 hours are spread over 2 or 3
> weeks or many weekends. So a lot of change occurs outside class hours.

I'm sure it would be fun, probably valuable too.  But really, there are 
better uses of my vacation time than a PDC.  I have actually retreated 
somewhat from my initial enthusiasm for PC due to what I see as a certain 
rigidity.  I contrast this with my time working for Midwestern Bio Ag, a 
sustainable ag product company.  They have a system too, cause quite a bit 
of controversy in some circles and do a great job getting folks on the path 
to better agriculture.  But folks they are flexible and realistic.  One 
step at a time, steady improvement, continuous effort to improve their 
product.  PC shares some of this, granted.  But the notion that one isn't 
doing PC without a design or a designer or whatever really rubs me the 
wrong way.  It's just like watching the Democrats loosing their best young 
people to the Greens since neither group embraces the big tent anymore.  We 
are to quick to exclude this or that rather than reaching for more folks.

> But if permaculture were simply about learning some techniques, or adopting
> a whole-systems view, we would have created a better world long ago: Those
> techniques and views have been around a very long time.
>
> Which leads me to the real benefit of a PDC. The whole design course is set
> up to teach people how to work and communicate together. That's the
> "culture" part of permaculture: humans acting together toward a shared
> purpose. Some guy reading books or working alone in his yard isn't going to
> learn that. We all know how many communities and projects have failed
> because those involved had plenty of technical knowledge but lacked the
> tools to get along. So along with those sections on soil and keyline and the
> other familiar stuff you can't justify hearing again, you get tools and
> exercises for working cooperatively, and experience solving the problems
> that always arise when people tackle a project together, in a unified
> package. I can often spot non-PDC grads based on the difficulties they have
> in groups.

Sure, but really aren't their plenty of ways to get to this point?  We have 
a good PC group going in Madison, not to mention a thriving CSA and organic 
farm sector.  I think these are far more likely to last than contacts made 
at a PDC Hundreds or thousands of kilometers from your home.

> The technical stuff is the easy part. If that's the principal sustainability
> tool you have, you'll fare no better than the thousands of failed
> intentional communities and early permaculture sites. I see far more
> successes achieved by PDC graduates than by others. And I can't tell you how
> many times someone shows up at a PDC claiming they "know the Manual" and
> says by the end that they didn't have a clue.
>
> I'm not saying that a PDC is absolutely necessary, just that it will
> significantly increase your chances of success, and give you a nice set of
> tools for applying Pc in a world of messy human relations. Plus gain a good
> set of friends, and have what nearly everyone says is a transformative
> experience.
>
> Of course, I was so enthralled by my first PDC that I decided to learn how
> to teach them, so I've got a bias.
>
> Toby

Yeah and I teach PC (always with vetted co instructors so far) any time I 
want.  I love being an anarchist and a barbarian!  YE HAW!  My last word on 
the matter?  There are plenty of folks who have no idea what PC is, the 
vetted and the self taught all should spread the word.

> _____________________________________________
> For a look at my new book on ecological gardening,
> Gaia's Garden: A Guide to Home-Scale Permaculture, visit
> http://www.chelseagreen.com/Garden/GaiasGarden.htm
>
>
>
>
>
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Mark P. Ludwig
Poultry Research Lab
University of Wisconsin -Madison
608-262-1730 WK
608-846-7125 HM