permaculture

["jamie" <jamie@tiscali.fr>]

Just as a footnote to the discussion of large farm Pc, what are the best
books anyone would recommend on the subject?
(Yes, the question is not as innocent as I have made it sound. If I'm not
way off the mark then there will be very few which are explicitly Pc books -
however, I would be interested in hearing recommendations that are
implicilty Pc too)

Jamie
Souscayrous

----- Original Message -----
From: <FranksFarm@aol.com>
To: <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Saturday, August 31, 2002 12:05 PM
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Exotic Plant Erradication/large ScalePC


>
> Good Day,
>
> Seems like I've stirred up some lively debate!
> In a message dated 8/28/02 6:16:45 PM, jamie@tiscali.fr writes:
>
> << What I'm after is a
> similarly coherent Pc strategy on the large scale (within the resources of
> current large farm owners) to that many of us practice on a small scale.
If
> we could come up with such a coherent structure we could then keep these
> farmers away from the 'machine and influence peddling...corporations.'>>
>
> Bravo, Jamie...well spoken. That's exactly what I'm looking for.
>
> But the real world difficulties,exhaustive labor,lack of organized markets
> ...I could go on and on but my head is spinning:)
>
> I'm trying to do many of the things we as a group seem to espouse.
>
> I'm setting up rotational grazing system so cattle can better utilize
forage
> resource.
> I've set up a conservation buffer zone of over 6000' to preserve the
waters
> of a crystal clear trout stream on my property.
>
> I've built ponds to help keep water on the property. I'd liked to build
some
> ponds at higher elevations at "key points" (a la Yeoman) but the magnitude
of
> the effort,$$$, and expertise is a bit much for me.
>
> And my interior pastures( not the bottoms where corn had been planted in
> past) have lots of little dips,swales, and berms which make bush hogging a
> bit of a rough go:)
>
> There are also quite a number of volunteer trees( cedars, gums, water
maple,
> dogwood,sycamore. a few pines) that had grown up on neglected acreage.
I've
> kept all but those that drought etc. have killed.
>
> Soils are quite thin with a heavy clay base. Low areas become bog like
with
> lots of standing water after heavy rains.
>
> And weeds like iron weed,joe-pye, wild rose,canadian thistle can really
take
> over these pastures fast...unless I constantly bush hog. Lots of extra
work.
> Extensions /locals recommend spraying...ugh!
>
> Sure with hard grazing pressure, and bush hogging I'm adding valuable
> nutrients, and organic matter and since I'm trying to favor grasses there
has
> been progress over the past two tears, but will I ever achieve the lush,
> meadow like self regenerating swards that are my goal?
>
> My neighbor who has farmed for over 50 years advises me to cut down all
the
> trees, re grade, and re seed quite a few acres, put in drainage tiles etc.
> I'm reluctant...but when I'm bush hogging, dodging limbs, and trying to
> maneuver around trees, or getting stuck in a low spot I can see the merit
of
> his advice in terms of field operations, management, and increased
pasture:)
>
> Got to sign off. More later:)  Frank
>
> Sometimes the more I do the more confused I become. I seek
biodiversity,and
> complexity. And believe that the most complex eco-systems seem to be the
ones
> that often require the lowest inputs to maintain since it is the amazing
> balance, and interdependence of the system that make it work.
>
> I am also very sympathetic to Fukokua sp?,Bromfield,Mollison etc.
>
> Yet I also need to make a modest living:) I've opted to live simply...but
of
> course many of the things I have spoken about cost quite a bit.
>
> The best solution imho is to have a community of like minded folks
grounded
> in ecology,PC,sustainable ag develop the property yet preserve the
> diversity,the wild life, the beauty of the land.
> I know there's a lot of interest but getting the right people, and getting
> folks to actually visit, and commit are the larger issues...given the long
> rides, and distance involved. Plus we are in a very rural area where many
of
> locals have never even heard of Permaculture, and put down any form of
> non-chemical, machine oriented farming.
>
> By the way when I lived in the city I used to believe that local practices
> probably evolved over long periods of time, and probably contained much
> wisdom that I should at least consider. But the thing that strikes me most
is
> that everyone seems to do things differently. I often hear conflicting
> advice,which is another reason I turn to this list:)
>
> But the worst is that often folks are not able to give reasons why they do
as
> they do.
> I like to follow models of those who are successful year in and year out.
I
> enjoy reading Joel Salatin and have been deeply influenced by his ideas on
> marketing.
>
> I'd love to be producing "Salad Bar BEEF", direct marketing to
restaurants,
> local customers  ,selling pastured poultry at premium prices etc.
>
> But real world obstacles like transportation,distance, local processing
> facilities, market infrastructure,customer development all require far too
> much effort for the already pressed small scale farmer. My concept of
scale
> is based upon volume of output rather than sheer size of the property.
>
>
>
>
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