permaculture

[BK <lildragon@saber.net>]

Title: A large farm

Onto the large farms conversation (heh sorry for using a single thread):
>> -On large scale the large scale ag and permaculture discussion, I think
>> mechinized harvesting inherently needs large amount of uniform product (a
>> John Deere ain't intellegent enough to pick a tomatoe, then a carrot, an
>> apple and a sprig of basil in one run).
> 
> (True, I'm not talking about 200 acres of veggies here; but then, ain't
> permies 'sposed to grow their own veggies? I know I don't spend alot at the
> produce section of my food coop!)

Maybe I didn't finish my thought well. I'm not saying thats the way pcer's should do it. But that certainly has affected the use of vast monoculture ag. The tenet of giving back in pc would imply that pc should not be limited to supporting only yourself, but might imply growing to produce food for others as well. I wonder how many people could be paid a Living Wage relative to the capital and operational costs of huge farm machines (note: I'm not antimachine), and how much food could be prduced by that many people, espicially with once a pc was estiablished (perhaps similar to the initial capital expendature on a combine, which then just becomes operational costs).

> I know a farmer who grew fava beans and wheat together, and combined them
> together, and sifted them apart.
> 
> I know another who intercrops hazels and walnuts, running sheep and turkeys
> under them, and of course has bees that work the flowers. That's just ONE
> part of his farm.
It seems there are many growing styles (organic, biointensive, Land Institute edible prairie work, and things as yet unnamed) that have many simlarities to pc ideas. And outside of agriculture, ideas of industrial ecosystems wherebe you cluster industries whose waste makes another's inputs. Understanding of ecosystems, networks, effiency, whole systems theory, etc. that are related in many ways to PC.

Jamie's post:
>However, these pressures toward larger and larger farms
>in the desire for greater and greater efficiency, is not new.
Efficiency of human labor perhaps, but when in the perspective of soil loss, etc as you mention below, not very effiecent.

In reguards to your following text, the sustainable creation of ones own food is a laudable goal, as nearly all current food is not sustainable, but an even greater goal might be to produce food to sustain the creators of the food, but also with some to spare for others who may not have the time for PC.  I'm not an absolutist, thats not what everyone should do. Maybe someone creates a PC to feed their family but blacksmiths on the side, or designs and advises others on PC, or installs renewable energy systems, after all most folks will need money or barterable items to get things they themselves can't produce. I agree that PC requires that human touch, though there are other systems with similarities to PC but on a larger scale, as above (perhaps not as diverse, but similar).

I see much of what I said is in some other posts below. So I'll leave my comments at this point.
:-)
BK