permaculture

[Mark <mpludwig@facstaff.wisc.edu>]

folks,
Thought I'd let this one cook for a bit before I comment.  No surprise I 
have strong opinions.  I'll work off Kirby's post.....

At 09:11 AM 8/3/02 -0500, you wrote:
> What Bill recommended was establishing small, permanent exclosures (1/4 to 1
> acre fenced off islands within the paddocks) in key spots on hill tops and /
> or next to a water source.  These exclosures could be planted with farmers
> trees, select grasses and medicinal forbes such as epizote (worm wood),
> chicory, dock, dandelion and others.  Once the vegetation in the exclosures
> was established the animals would be allowed in at key times such as calving
> in the spring the animals or in the hottest part of late summer.

Pretty good idea, though given how much woods you have you probably just 
need to fence your edges a bit and use what you have.  The beech you 
mentioned could turn out to be quite valuable in a PC system, good for 
turkey mast or possibly swine, though the really can tear things up, 
especially if you don't ring their snouts.  Look for spots with ramps, 
elders, bramble, mints, burdock and other medials.  Get a copy of Juliet 
Barke Levy's (I'm sure I have misspelled here) "herbal for pasture and 
stable" for details or look for info by Jerry Burette.

> The other type of exclosure would be larger and temporary.  These exclosures
> would be moved around and used to eventually provide rest as much of the
> paddock as possible.
>
> You could create a couple of exclosures / tree islands in each paddock with
> moveable electric fencing or permanent fencing.  Yes, it's a long term
> commitment and yes it would temporarily remove some areas from grazing.

Flip the issue over.  Use the cattle to knock back undesirable brush and 
trees where you have them and create your reserves by excluding 
animals.  Do it all with single strands of poly wire and it's easy.  If you 
switch to sheep or goats you will need electric net at least.  Might look 
for some Scottish highlands, docile and very good brush eaters.

> Also on the outside of your paddocks, you can plant dehiscent (seed
> dropping) legumes and other hardy fruit producing trees that would hang over
> into your grazed paddock.  As well, other medicinal herbs can be planted
> just outside of fence rows within reach of livestock as they mature.

Good ideas, even better if you can just find such things in place and 
exploit them.

> >>  Do you think it would be worth extra effort to provide lanes, with a
> greater number of electric spring gates to allow cattle to walk extra 400'
> or possibly more to get to shade whenever they choose?  <<
>
> Where it's financially feasible, certainly, though as Mark points out you
> have to avoid luring the cattle away from key grazing areas.  I believe the
> figure they gave us in range sciences in university was that cattle would
> graze 1/2 to 1 mile away from their water source, so spacing out your water
> troughs is also essential for getting your stock to go where you'd like them
> to.

It's very hard to justify the expense of lots of lanes in a beef 
situation.  In dairy where you need to move the animals to a central 
location it makes a lot of sense.  With beef I would look for the best path 
you can, old logging road, ridge lines etc.  and develop that as both your 
tractor road and cattle run.  USE THIS ROAD!  haul all your heavy loads on 
this path to limit compaction, especially on wet ground.  If you're lucky 
enough to get the ground to freeze then you can wander around with heavy 
metal.  Waters lines are essential IMO.  They make things much more 
flexible as to where on can put cattle and keep them in place long enough 
to archive your goals.  From your description a 1 inch/3cm black PVC line 
should work fine.  Try to find an irrigation supply house for all the 
fittings clamps etc.  You should get a good price and excellent quality 
this way.  You need to build this to be able to feed some of your high 
ground too IMO.  It sucks to be stuck in the wet bottoms, not good for 
cattle, man nor earth.

> >>  I have pasture areas with clumps of trees that cattle seem to enjoy, but
> it sure makes seeding, fertilizing, liming and bush hogging more difficult.
> <<
>
> Would it be possible to shape these areas in a way that makes passes with
> machinery more accommodating?  I'm envisioning a football shaped tree
> cluster oriented long-ways with the direction that you're shredding or
> making passes.  This type of shape and orientation might make it easier to
> steer around.

good thinking.  Don't be afraid to cut a few down either.  Sounds like you 
have plenty.

> >>  I'm hoping that grasses, and clovers will thicken, and eventually choke
> out such. Am I dreaming; is this wishful thinking?  Like to hear more on
> this.  <<
>
> No you're not and Turner's book is one of your best bets.  When the
> undesirable forbes begin to out compete your selected grasses and browse
> this usually indicates a mineral or nutrient deficiency.  Many "weeds" can
> indicate specifically what you are deficient in.
>
> The critical element of sustained success is to properly enliven the soil
> food web rather than attack the weeds which are probably more a part of the
> solution than the problem.  I'm glad to hear that you're shredding your
> weeds rather than spraying them with 2-4-d.
>
> Chemical fertilizers can also be devastating on soils.  Ammonium nitrate
> fertilizers will also burn and kill microbes, collapse the soil and destroy
> your tilth.  So we have to feed the soil in a way that doesn't shock or
> damage it.  Here are a few ways...

I'll jump in here.  I agree with Kirby on much of this.  For herbicides, 
use the minimum.  Stump treating brush, wiping weeds rather than 
spraying.    A little roundup (glophsate)  here and there works great for 
certain things, killing grass under trees for example or knocking out 
perennial weeds and can save tons of time and or tillage.   Use no 
insecticides, very toxic to soil life, often much more dangerous to you.

Check out
 midwesternbioag.com
, this is a great intro to what is called biological farming.  a copy of 
Gary Zimmer's "the Biological Farmer" is a fine text on the matter, and its 
new and up to date on the state of the art (not that there is anything 
wrong with older works).  You need to get complete soil tests, including 
micro nutrients, to get a good picture of what you need to balance the soil 
right.  I don't have time to cover all the aspects of this today, the web 
site covers it well.

> Use farmers trees.  They are usually but not always nitrogen fixing legumes
> (essential brows for many wild grazers).  Farmers trees are deep rooted
> miners and offer dappled shade allowing good grass production below and
> heavy bean production.  Mollison points out that since the broadscale
> application of chemical fertilizers in North America (circa 1955 or so)
> horses began eating the bark of all of the locust trees wherever possible.
> Ever notice how horses love to girdle trees?  This is likely because most of
> the available minerals have been chemically and biologically washed out of
> the upper levels of our soils and our commercial grasses.  The horses are
> mineral starved and set out after the trees with a vengeance when their
> bodies become stressed.

Look at what you have on this topic too.  You may be able to do a bit of 
selective logging for timber and develop an upland pasture base at the same 
time.  Do not let some scum bag "hi grade" your timber, that is take all 
the good saw logs out and stick you with all the trash.  Your much better 
off thinning out low quality junk and letting saw logs grow as a retirement 
project.  However if you purchased the place with very run down or logged 
over patches you may have a great silvo pasture in need of some highlanders 
or goats.

> Populate your paddocks with the large pasture worm (see Bill's, The Global
> Gardener, video).  You can buy or collect them, then cultivate them and put
> them out with a divot of sod, grass side down and a handful of dolomitic
> lime.  The worms will accelerate the recovery of your soil's tilth and
> organic matter content.  Put out a worm laden divot every 10 meters or so.

We just worked over a worm issue on grazersedge.  Seems many woodlots 
suffer from worms consuming all the duff, not enough left to geminate the 
understory and new trees.  Hard to believe but apparently true.  The are 
good for pasture however, might put out some red worms right next to manure 
pats.

> A manure / compost tea can also be brewed and injected with a key line or
> chisel plow.  Add some molasses and this tea, combined with chiseling and
> aerating, will both inoculate your soil with bacteria and other microbes,
> and provide a food source for them and the local microbes.

No offence Kirby but this sounds like a pain in the butt.  Get the soil 
balanced right for clover.  Start with Alsike in the bottoms, tolerates 
acid better and water.  Maybe some Birds foot trefoil too.  The clover will 
help with N production.  Any manure you haul should probably be placed 
carefully where you want it and out of the basin area.  I suspect you're 
going to find plenty of fertility in your low ground, and much less in the 
shallower hills.  If you need N use Ammonium sulfate, slower release and 
you get S.  Check Ph, and when you know Ca and Mg levels you can select 
limeing materials better or opt for gypsum if pH is high.  Purchased hay 
may be a good way to import minerals if you're low in fertility too.

> I'm beginning to lean more towards the biodynamic approach as well.  It's
> pretty apparent that the key is to feed and encourage the soil food web.
> The same compost tea amended with beneficial enzymes and a couple of
> biodynamic preparations would probably do wonders for the food web.  There
> are also prep's to cause the decline of undesired grasses and forbes.
>
> I'd be happy to hammer out details too.

Most of what drives the food web is going to be the physical, chemical and 
compaction management you do.  You get inoculated by the river.  I would 
put BD preps and soil inoculants fairly low on the list.  Interesting topic 
to get to know however, sooner if your soil has a foul anerobic smell 
rather than a "clean, earthy' smell.


Mark P. Ludwig
Poultry Research Lab
University of Wisconsin -Madison
608-262-1730 WK
608-846-7125 HM