permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Subject: permaculture
List archive
- From: "Graham Burnett" <gb0063551@cableinet.co.uk>
- To: <permaculture.uk@ntlworld.com>
- Cc: <office@permaculture.org.uk>, "permaculture" <permaculture@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
- Subject: Fw: Pc slammed in Whole Earth Review
- Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2002 20:35:19 -0000
Title: Pc slammed in Whole Earth Review
I wondered if anybody here (Permaculture UK) could
help Toby with this?
What about john comben & sue ferguson's reports
on Cool Temperate PC (ie UK) that have recently been made available (still
waiting for my copy from the Assoc) ? are these online? If not Micah, stop
slacking! (only joking mate!)
My own take (from my recent article that was
published in Permaculture Magazine (UK)) http://pages.unisonfree.net/gburnett/essay/allotment1.htm :
"The question "does permaculture work?" is a
tautological question- Permaculture is BY DEFINITION about was DOES work and
what it is sustainable for future generations in your locality; and is also
about what suits you where you are in life..."
IOW Permaculture is about ethics, principles &
design, not specific techniques as Greg seems to be saying...
Cheers
Graham Burnett
www.landandliberty.co.uk Now available- 'Permaculture A Beginner's Guide' also tee shirts- 'Permaculture Manadala' & 'Land Is Liberty- Plant A Seed Today...' ----- Original Message -----
From: Toby Hemenway
To: permaculture
Sent: Saturday, January 05, 2002 8:06 PM
Subject: Pc slammed in Whole Earth Review He used some pretty strong language: "The fundamentally misguided ideas of some permaculturists . . . show signs of polluting the larger culture." It's unpleasant to see this in a widely respected and influential magazine. One of Greg's less cogent arguments was that Pc's whole idea of mimicking mature ecosystems was stupid because immature ecosystems are more productive than mature ones. This was easy to dispose of, since he missed the difference between fully mature (senescent, ancient, less productive) forests and maturing forests (5-200 years old, which Pc seeks to mimic), which are 2-10 times more productive than meadows or farms. But his most damning points were about the absence of data, testing, and experiments with controls to support any of permaculture's claims of being a superior system to conventional agriculture or gardening. He wrote that he has never seen "any convincing evidence that temperate zone forest gardens can do better than meadow gardens at providing useful products." If anyone ever did measure, he says, the yields of conventional gardens should dwarf those of forest gardens. Permaculturists, he writes, "have neglected the scientific approach to determining the worth of their ideas . . . and instead have argued for and against particular gardening techniques on the basis of (at best) incomplete theoretical notions and (at worst) pure intuition. This is worse than glossing over the details; it is misconstruing the details. . . . It is completely unacceptable when their claims are made to the general public, who stand to waste huge amounts of time and money on a (much) less-than-optimal approach to boosting garden output." The problem is, it's hard to find data to refute his claims (I did my best, but to an insider, there may be a faint whiff of the barnyard about some of my reply). We just don't collect data. What do we answer when a farmer asks, "How much more money or produce, or less erosion, will your system get me?" That we just know it works better? Does anyone have any numbers? I've looked at a lot of Pc sites in North America, and I haven't seen one where people are measuring yields. So are we justified in saying that this stuff works? Or is permaculture just for those, as Williams says, "who do not require optimal solutions to pressing agricultural and ecological problems"? If anyone's got any hard numbers, or other reputable data, please share them. If not, it points to a huge lack in permaculture, and we should get busy setting up trials and getting reliable data instead of just banking on Bill's wild claims. Without data, more folks like Williams will erode permaculture's credibility. I've also had inquiries from a researcher who wants yield data from permaculture farms for a thesis. If anyone has these, let me know. Toby _____________________________________________ For a look at my new book on ecological gardening, Gaia's Garden: A Guide to Home-Scale Permaculture, visit http://www.chelseagreen.com/Garden/GaiasGarden.htm --- You are currently subscribed to permaculture as: gb0063551@cableinet.co.uk To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-permaculture@franklin.oit.unc.edu Get the list FAQ at: http://www.ibiblio.org/ecolandtech/documents/permaculture.faq |
-
Pc slammed in Whole Earth Review,
Toby Hemenway, 01/05/2002
- <Possible follow-up(s)>
- Fw: Pc slammed in Whole Earth Review, Graham Burnett, 01/05/2002
- Re: Pc slammed in Whole Earth Review, Allan Balliett, 01/05/2002
- Re: Pc slammed in Whole Earth Review, keller, 01/05/2002
- Re: Pc slammed in Whole Earth Review, Greg, 01/05/2002
- Re: Pc slammed in Whole Earth Review, keller, 01/06/2002
- Re: Pc slammed in Whole Earth Review, georg parlow, 01/06/2002
- Re: Pc slammed in Whole Earth Review, Allan Balliett, 01/06/2002
- Re: Pc slammed in Whole Earth Review, keller, 01/06/2002
- RE: Pc slammed in Whole Earth Review, souscayrous, 01/06/2002
- Re: Pc slammed in Whole Earth Review, Felicity Wright, 01/06/2002
- Re: Pc slammed in Whole Earth Review, keller, 01/06/2002
Archive powered by MHonArc 2.6.24.