Percy-L: Literary, Religious, Scientific, and Philosophical Discussion of Walker Percy

[Michael Larson <larsonovic AT gmail.com>]

Marcus, yes, I don't doubt that he invariably surprised you. The artist in him was anything but predictable. He seems not to have liked labels in general and knee-jerk responses to things according to one's social or political affiliations. As a thinker of the first order, he was always a level or two under the surface about whatever was going on, considering causes and diagnostics that had escaped most others. I did not have the pleasure of spending time with him, as you did, but that is definitely my impression of him based on all his essays, novels, and interviews. He did not gravitate to easy answers.

Would love to hear any other anecdotal reflections of him that you care to share.

ML

On Thu, Jul 23, 2020 at 2:17 PM <percy-l-request AT lists.ibiblio.org> wrote:

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Today's Topics:

   1. Re: Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, Issue 22 (Marcus Smith)


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Message: 1
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2020 14:15:56 -0500
From: Marcus Smith <marcus AT loyno.edu>
To: percy-l AT lists.ibiblio.org
Subject: Re: [percy-l] Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, Issue 22
Message-ID:
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There used to be a lunch group that Percy regularly attended.  We met at a
restaurant In Mandeville.  In driving across Lake Ponchartrain on that
deeply Cartesian Causeway, I would sometimes try to think of a ?good?
question to ask Percy. I usually felt I knew what he would say.  He
invariably surprised me.
This is one reason I cannot use him as a touchstone.  Except for LSU
football.

On Thu, Jul 23, 2020 at 1:21 PM <percy-l-request AT lists.ibiblio.org> wrote:

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>    1. Re: Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, Issue 15 (janetcantor37 AT yahoo.com)
>    2. Re: Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, Issue 19 (Michael Larson)
>
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> Message: 1
> Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2020 17:51:59 +0000 (UTC)
> From: "janetcantor37 AT yahoo.com" <janetcantor37 AT yahoo.com>
> To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion"
>         <percy-l AT lists.ibiblio.org>
> Subject: Re: [percy-l] Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, Issue 15
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> Michael Larson,YES!I agree.Janet Cantor
>
>
>
>   On Thu, Jul 23, 2020 at 12:43 PM, Lauren Berdy<
> lauren.stacy.berdy AT gmail.com> wrote:
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> Subject: Re: [percy-l] Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, Issue 19
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> Marcus, Chuck, Lauren:
>
> I'm pretty sure I did not suggest that Percy was a touchstone for any
> particular Catholic doctrine. What I did say, and what I would continue to
> say, is that his Catholicism informs his work. He said so himself over and
> over in the interviews. The label of "Catholic" is one he did not try to
> avoid. And to my knowledge, he never disputed any Catholic teaching on
> faith or morals. If you have a record to the contrary, I would be sincerely
> interested in seeing it. It's true, he did not consider himself an
> evangelist. Why should he? He left that work to the Church. But he did
> consider himself a novelist and a philosopher (of sorts) who had come to
> believe in the Church's authority to carry the message of truth to the
> world. That's why he converted.
>
> Best,
> Mike Larson
>
> On Thu, Jul 23, 2020 at 11:45 AM <percy-l-request AT lists.ibiblio.org>
> wrote:
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> >    1. Re: Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, Issue 15 (Charles Lowry)
> >
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 1
> > Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2020 12:44:27 -0400
> > From: Charles Lowry <lowry.charles AT gmail.com>
> > To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion"
> >         <percy-l AT lists.ibiblio.org>
> > Subject: Re: [percy-l] Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, Issue 15
> > Message-ID: <8B55ABDB-108E-4DFF-BC95-DEE724F30E02 AT gmail.com" target="_blank">8B55ABDB-108E-4DFF-BC95-DEE724F30E02 AT gmail.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> >
> > I did not know Percy, though I was forty-one years old when he died and
> > consider myself a pretty devoted acolyte.  I agree with Marcus that Percy
> > ought not to be regarded as a doctrinal touchstone for Catholicism, for
> one
> > very important reason, which is why/how Percy came to Catholicism.
> >
> > There are lots of answers to this why/how question.  I am a cradle
> > Catholic; no one in my family can ever remember a time, stretching over
> > multitudes of years and two continents, when we were not all Catholics.
> We
> > were not all virtuous, we were not all observant, but we were all
> > Catholic.  That is one way to be Catholic.  Converts come to the Church
> for
> > a variety of reasons.  Some marry a Catholic and convert for reasons of
> > family unity and peace.  Some are attracted by the history of the Church,
> > the continuity, the hospitals, orphanages, universities.  Some are
> > intellectual converts, convinced by apologetics and doctrine.  Some are
> > sacramental converts, influenced by the encounter which those signs
> > effect.
> >
> > Percy is as different.  I am, in this plague year, away from my books and
> > therefore unable to offer exact citations, but Percy was what we might
> call
> > an anthropological convert.  He looked at what the Church has learned in
> > two thousand years, at how the Church reflected the reasonable view of
> > humanity, and he latched on.  He said once that he was a Catholic not
> > because he agreed with the Church?s views on abortion, but because the
> > Church agreed with his views on abortion.  This is a far cry from the
> > ?omnia et singula? Catholicism of the cradle Catholic or the apologetics
> > Catholic.  I am not suggesting that Percy had no feelings for the Church
> or
> > for Catholic tradition?he once took Shelby Foote to a Solemn High Mass
> with
> > Gregorian Chant and incense?but that he was much more likely, as Marcus
> > seems to hint, to filter the Church?s perspective through his own than
> vice
> > versa.
> >
> > Chuck Lowry
> > Brooklyn, New York
> >
> > Sent from my iPhone
> >
> > > On Jul 23, 2020, at 11:40 AM, Marcus Smith <marcus AT loyno.edu> wrote:
> > >
> > > ?
> > > ? if we
> > > accept Percy's Catholicism."
> > >
> > > I?m sort of uneasy with the (frequent) efforts to invoke Percy as a
> > touchstone for various Catholic doctrinal issues.  We knew Walker and
> Bunt
> > and their daughters for 20+ years.  We visited them.  They were guests in
> > our house.  We went to some semiotic conferences with Walker.  I
> certainly
> > ?accept? that Walker was a Catholic.  A serious Catholic.  But like all
> of
> > us he was (and is) a complex mystery.   I wouldn?t begin to try to invoke
> > his faith to support any particular doctrines, unless it is the play
> > choices of an LSU football coach.  Also, Percy started out as a
> > Presbyterian (I think) as well as traversing a period of non-believing.
> He
> > understood all these languages and dialects and could and did run them
> > through his conversations.  But except for LSU football, I would move
> > carefully before invoking Percy?s faith for particular doctrinal claims.
> > >
> > >> On Wed, Jul 22, 2020 at 8:48 PM <percy-l-request AT lists.ibiblio.org>
> > wrote:
> > >> Send Percy-L mailing list submissions to
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> > >> than "Re: Contents of Percy-L digest..."
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Today's Topics:
> > >>
> > >>    1. Happiness and the Meaning of Life (Steve Petrica)
> > >>    2. Re: Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, Issue 9 (Thomas Gollier)
> > >>    3. Re: Happiness and the Meaning of Life (janetcantor37 AT yahoo.com)
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >>
> > >> Message: 1
> > >> Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2020 19:35:58 -0500
> > >> From: Steve Petrica <steve.petrica AT gmail.com>
> > >> To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion"
> > >>         <percy-l AT lists.ibiblio.org>
> > >> Subject: [percy-l] Happiness and the Meaning of Life
> > >> Message-ID:
> > >>         <CACFVBi79jvQBtsr97Ty-9AdNBhx0gqx_8KE6i4FcUTCgkb=
> > wmg AT mail.gmail.com>
> > >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> > >>
> > >> Bishop Barron's Word on Fire Institute has been streaming a lecture
> > series
> > >> on "Happiness and the Meaning of Life," by University of South
> Carolina
> > >> philosophy professor Jennifer Frey. In lesson 5 of the series, she
> > >> presents *The
> > >> Moviegoer* as a "perceptive diagnosis of our malaise and our attempts
> to
> > >> relieve our deep sadness with countless distractions."
> > >>
> > >>
> >
> https://wordonfire.institute/sin-self-knowledge-and-the-search-for-meaning
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> > >>
> > >> ------------------------------
> > >>
> > >> Message: 2
> > >> Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2020 18:45:55 -0700
> > >> From: Thomas Gollier <tgollier AT gmail.com>
> > >> To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion"
> > >>         <percy-l AT lists.ibiblio.org>
> > >> Subject: Re: [percy-l] Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, Issue 9
> > >> Message-ID:
> > >>         <
> > CAMVPF1EQ46kOZP7RQaAWAF46fbx1DDzKWjz_2Gs0PTnEDRXGxQ AT mail.gmail.com" target="_blank">CAMVPF1EQ46kOZP7RQaAWAF46fbx1DDzKWjz_2Gs0PTnEDRXGxQ AT mail.gmail.com>
> > >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> > >>
> > >> Mike and David,
> > >>
> > >> Mike, you seem to have zeroed in on the crux of this when you write:
> > "if we
> > >> accept Percy's Catholicism."
> > >> For coming to Percy via his interest in Peirce's' semiotic and French
> > >> existentialism, his Catholicism has
> > >> been an ongoing fly in the ointment for me.  Although I realize this
> is
> > his
> > >> calling card with many of his readers,
> > >> it just doesn't seem to fit philosophically, at least until I read
> > >> 'Lancelot' and embroiled myself in this discussion.
> > >> Perhaps I can clarify what I mean by back to a phrase, "belief in an
> > >> objective moral order," that you used in
> > >> your first message opening this topic.
> > >>
> > >> A moral order, it seems to me, is an inherently subjective phenomenon.
> > It
> > >> can be shared intersubjectively,
> > >> take on various objective trappings, and be even shared by so many
> over
> > >> such long periods of time that there
> > >> is some justification for referring to it legally as an "institution"
> or
> > >> semantically as "objective."  And, in fact,
> > >> Catholicism has historically sought to increase its intersubjective
> > mass by
> > >> aggressively proselytizing itself
> > >> around the world.  But in an essentially important way, a moral order
> > >> remains subjective phenomenon
> > >> regardless of the extent of its intersubjective acceptance.  A moral
> > order
> > >> can only gain intersubjectivity by
> > >> being accepted and internalized by individual subjects as their own.
> > >>
> > >> A moral order that a person has inherited or internalized from others,
> > with
> > >> whatever personal quirks they
> > >> may have added to it, doesn't become an "objective reality" until they
> > >> implement it in their own interactions
> > >> with others. And, this seems to be what Lancelot has resolved to do at
> > the
> > >> end of the novel. He is going
> > >> to personally implement his moral order, such as it is, in his own
> > >> interactions with others. He hopes, even
> > >> assumes, many others agree with him, but if they don't that won't
> change
> > >> anything about what he intends
> > >> to do.  His resolution to make his moral order the basis of his
> > objective
> > >> interactions with others is what is
> > >> needed to get released and to find absolution.
> > >>
> > >> And David, I have to admit I was startled when, after going through I
> > don't
> > >> know how many pages of
> > >> Lancelot's "confession," I read you writing: "It seems to me the
> > >> "transformation" is that of Fr. John (Percival).
> > >> But after mulling it over, Percival does seem to get to a similar
> > >> resolution and absolution in the course of
> > >> the novel.  For he resolves to put his own more traditional Catholic
> > moral
> > >> order into action on a local level.
> > >> I'm just kind of getting an inkling of what a powerful figure the
> local
> > >> priest could be.  Someone knowing
> > >> everyone and their histories in the village that you could go to when
> > you
> > >> were lost.  You could lay out what
> > >> was wrong, maybe where we went wrong, how and why we got where you
> are,
> > and
> > >> the priest could give
> > >> you absolution, a restart back on the right path.  By "going native"
> > >> Percival would be making his moral order
> > >> existentially objective as well.
> > >>
> > >> And then there was Anna?  She was communicating again and was being
> > >> released too.
> > >>
> > >> In fact, Percy has got me thinking at all kinds of confessions ? not
> > just
> > >> those to priests and psychiatrists,
> > >> but also those made to parole boards, alcoholics anonymous, and such
> as
> > >> that.  They all demand contrition
> > >> and they all provide absolution, but they all seem to have very
> > different
> > >> standards as to what produces or
> > >> qualifies for that absolution.  They certainly seem to play a bigger
> > role
> > >> in our lives than I thought before
> > >> reading this novel.
> > >>
> > >> Thanks,
> > >> Tom
> > >>
> > >> On Mon, Jul 20, 2020 at 10:09 AM Michael Larson <larsonovic AT gmail.com
> >
> > >> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> > Tom,
> > >> >
> > >> > I think the postulation that Lancelot and Percival are both in the
> > >> > afterlife is viable (and as I mentioned, intriguing), but it is less
> > >> > hopeful for Lancelot, at least if we accept Percy's Catholicism.
> > People
> > >> > have different ideas about heaven, it's true, but that does not
> > preclude it
> > >> > from being a real place that exists quite apart from people's
> > anticipatory
> > >> > perceptions of it.
> > >> >
> > >> > You propose that heaven (or hell) is simply a person left
> > unpretentiously
> > >> > with himself. What makes it one or the other--heaven or hell--is
> then
> > >> > presumably how one feels about one's real self, after all
> pretensions
> > have
> > >> > been stripped away. This is, of course, an entirely subjective
> > notion--one
> > >> > person's heaven might be another's hell (which is maybe what you
> were
> > >> > getting at with "pick your poison"), and neither heaven nor hell
> > could be
> > >> > communal, nor would either represent any particular posture toward
> the
> > >> > divine, as the perimeter of each state is confined to the individual
> > in
> > >> > question.
> > >> >
> > >> > But Lancelot is describing something objective (a created world) and
> > >> > communal (how society ought to be) and with a certain posture toward
> > God
> > >> > (in Lance's case, anger followed by disillusionment). It might be a
> > >> > description of how he would make heaven on earth if he were in
> > charge. But
> > >> > he is also aware that Percival does not align with him, that
> Percival
> > has
> > >> > attached himself to something that transcends himself and his own
> > ideas.
> > >> > And Lance is open-minded enough to acknowledge the possibility that
> > >> > Percival may even be right. i.e. "It's my way or it's your way, but
> > it's
> > >> > not their way." And Percival agrees, "Yes."
> > >> >
> > >> > So where does that leave them? In Catholic teaching, purgatory is a
> > >> > refining fire set aside for those who die in a state of grace (no
> > >> > unrepentant mortal sin), a final purification before the beatific
> > vision.
> > >> > But if Lance is dead, he has not died in a state of grace. "... no
> > >> > confession forthcoming, Father, as you well know ... I feel nothing
> > now
> > >> > except a certain coldness" (253). If he is dead, Lance's state is
> > fixed,
> > >> > according to Catholic teaching, and the thing Percival has to tell
> > him, the
> > >> > thing that gives his gaze upon Lance such sadness (254) is that
> > Lance's
> > >> > release from prison is a release into hell. The prison itself, the
> > long
> > >> > recounting of his crime, has been his particular examination, upon
> > death.
> > >> > And now the judgment of his chosen state lies before him. Yes, a new
> > >> > beginning of sorts but not a happy one.
> > >> >
> > >> > In this interpretation, though, I think there is no reason to assume
> > that
> > >> > Percival died with Lance in the explosion. The strange silence of
> > Percival
> > >> > over the course of the novel makes the encounter between the two men
> > feel
> > >> > more like there is a kind of barrier, as between the living and the
> > dead.
> > >> > We might even theorize that Lance's witnessing of Percival's prayer
> > in the
> > >> > cemetery (254) is actually taking place at his own (Lance's own)
> > grave,
> > >> > that Percival's prayer for the dead is for Lance. On the side of
> life,
> > >> > Percival cannot know the state of Lance's soul, so in charity, he
> > prays.
> > >> > But at the final meeting of the novel, he does seem to know Lance's
> > fate,
> > >> > and further maybe even to have been given the task of telling Lance.
> > >> >
> > >> > On the other hand, if neither man has died and Lance has truly been
> > >> > telling his story from a prison/hospital in the temporal realm, then
> > we can
> > >> > speculate that the post-novel words of Percival may indeed begin to
> > bring
> > >> > Lance toward sorrow and repentance, followed by redemption. At
> > novel's end,
> > >> > he feels nothing but coldness. Perhaps that is the very nadir he had
> > to
> > >> > reach in order to find life.
> > >> >
> > >> > Mike
> > >> >
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> >
> > >> >> Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2020 18:04:28 +0000
> > >> >> From: "Beck, David A" <dabeck AT iupui.edu>
> > >> >> To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion"
> > >> >>         <percy-l AT lists.ibiblio.org>
> > >> >> Subject: Re: [percy-l] [External] Re:  Percy-L Digest, Vol 161,
> Issue
> > >> >>         6
> > >> >> Message-ID: <1595009067780.10724 AT iupui.edu" target="_blank">1595009067780.10724 AT iupui.edu>
> > >> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"
> > >> >>
> > >> >> I'm not sure we can go as far as saying Lance found redemption. I
> > didn't
> > >> >> see any evidence of that. He makes his confession but doesn't seem
> to
> > >> >> bothered by what he has done. He didn't receive absolution, because
> > he
> > >> >> wasn't repentant.
> > >> >>
> > >> >
> > >>
> > >> > It seems to me the "transformation" is that of Fr. John (Percival).
> At
> > >> >> first, he is troubled, abstracted, and seems to be having doubts.
> > After
> > >> >> hearing Lance's ravings, he realizes that he has to make a choice.
> > Then he
> > >> >> returns wearing his clerical "outfit" and seems to have found
> > renewal in
> > >> >> his faith. I read somewhere (did Percy say it?) that Fr. John is
> the
> > real
> > >> >> protagonist.
> > >> >>
> > >> >
> > >>
> > >> > If I'm wrong, I've led many a college student astray over the years.
> > :-)
> > >> >>
> > >> >
> > >>
> > >> > Just my two cents.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> -David
> > >> >>
> > >> >> David Beck
> > >> >> Senior Lecturer
> > >> >> English Department
> > >> >> Indiana University and Purdue University at Indianapolis
> > >> >> 425 University Boulevard, CA 343-E
> > >> >> Indianapolis, IN 46202
> > >> >> 317-278-2550
> > >> >>
> > >> >
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> > >
> > >>
> > >> ------------------------------
> > >>
> > >> Message: 3
> > >> Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2020 01:48:07 +0000 (UTC)
> > >> From: "janetcantor37 AT yahoo.com" <janetcantor37 AT yahoo.com>
> > >> To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion"
> > >>         <percy-l AT lists.ibiblio.org>
> > >> Subject: Re: [percy-l] Happiness and the Meaning of Life
> > >> Message-ID: <213691927.4924047.1595468887490 AT mail.yahoo.com" target="_blank">213691927.4924047.1595468887490 AT mail.yahoo.com>
> > >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> > >>
> > >>  I must confess I only listened to the fifth lesson about The
> > Moviegoer. Professor Frey was exquisite in her reading of the novel.
> > >> I have always wondered why I love Percy and have never figured it
> out.I
> > am not Catholic, Southern, able to understand philosophy, or filled with
> > malaise. ?Yet there is something speaking directly to me in his novels.
> And
> > I love his humor.
> > >> The only thing in this whole presentation that gave me pause in lesson
> > five is the way Binx's aunt is described. To me she is one aspect of life
> > that must make up the whole of a person for him to be an integrated
> soul.?
> > >> So many who read Percy, particularly those who are attracted to the
> > Christian side of him, dismiss his aunt. I did not. Conscience comes from
> > our not wanting to?often G-d, yes, but it also comes from knowing right
> > from wrong and not wanting to offend those who have our best?interests at
> > heart.?
> > >> I was astounded by the beautiful way the professor's words?here so
> > aptly described the novel.
> > >> Thank you for this.
> > >> Janet Cantor
> > >>     On Wednesday, July 22, 2020, 08:36:49 PM EDT, Steve Petrica <
> > steve.petrica AT gmail.com> wrote:
> > >>
> > >>  Bishop Barron's Word on Fire Institute has been streaming a lecture
> > series on "Happiness and the Meaning of Life," by University of South
> > Carolina philosophy professor Jennifer Frey. In lesson 5 of the series,
> she
> > presents The Moviegoer as a "perceptive diagnosis of our malaise and our
> > attempts to relieve our deep sadness with countless distractions."
> > >>
> > >>
> >
> https://wordonfire.institute/sin-self-knowledge-and-the-search-for-meaning
> > >> ----------------------------------
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