Percy-L: Literary, Religious, Scientific, and Philosophical Discussion of Walker Percy

[Marcus Smith <marcus AT loyno.edu>]

Did I say anything about Percy having  a “cursory interest” in any of the matters you link to this phrase?  

On Thu, Jul 23, 2020 at 12:07 PM <percy-l-request AT lists.ibiblio.org> wrote:

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Today's Topics:

   1. Re: Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, Issue 19 (Stephen Holmgren)


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Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2020 12:58:40 -0400
From: Stephen Holmgren <stephenholmgren AT me.com>
To: percy-l AT lists.ibiblio.org
Subject: Re: [percy-l] Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, Issue 19
Message-ID: <BC84A704-CD69-4419-869A-AA1903015EF8 AT me.com" target="_blank">BC84A704-CD69-4419-869A-AA1903015EF8 AT me.com>
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With regard to the question about Percy?s Catholicism, it is worth bearing in mind his decision to become an oblate of St. Joseph?s Benedictine Abbey near his Covington home, as well as his desire to be buried in its cemetery. These decisions witness to a more than cursory interest in the historic Church?s sacramental view of Creation as well as the sturdy anthropology that goes along with it. They also suggest that his choices were rooted in his spiritual submission to something greater than himself rather than having been a series of acts of accommodation for things that he thought were compatible with himself.


Stephen Holmgren

stephenholmgren AT me.com
blog: www.towardbeauty.org <http://www.towardbeauty.org/>
book: Ethics After Easter <https://smile.amazon.com/Ethics-After-Easter-Churchs-Teaching-ebook/dp/B009D1S374/ref=sr_1_1?crid=2SATXO0UBWR8K&keywords=ethics+after+easter&qid=1555680856&s=gateway&sprefix=ethics+after+,aps,157&sr=8-1>





> On Jul 23, 2020, at 12:44 PM, percy-l-request AT lists.ibiblio.org wrote:
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>   1. Re: Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, Issue 15 (Charles Lowry)
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> Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2020 12:44:27 -0400
> From: Charles Lowry <lowry.charles AT gmail.com>
> To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion"
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> Subject: Re: [percy-l] Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, Issue 15
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> I did not know Percy, though I was forty-one years old when he died and consider myself a pretty devoted acolyte.  I agree with Marcus that Percy ought not to be regarded as a doctrinal touchstone for Catholicism, for one very important reason, which is why/how Percy came to Catholicism.
>
> There are lots of answers to this why/how question.  I am a cradle Catholic; no one in my family can ever remember a time, stretching over multitudes of years and two continents, when we were not all Catholics.  We were not all virtuous, we were not all observant, but we were all Catholic.  That is one way to be Catholic.  Converts come to the Church for a variety of reasons.  Some marry a Catholic and convert for reasons of family unity and peace.  Some are attracted by the history of the Church, the continuity, the hospitals, orphanages, universities.  Some are intellectual converts, convinced by apologetics and doctrine.  Some are sacramental converts, influenced by the encounter which those signs effect. 
>
> Percy is as different.  I am, in this plague year, away from my books and therefore unable to offer exact citations, but Percy was what we might call an anthropological convert.  He looked at what the Church has learned in two thousand years, at how the Church reflected the reasonable view of humanity, and he latched on.  He said once that he was a Catholic not because he agreed with the Church?s views on abortion, but because the Church agreed with his views on abortion.  This is a far cry from the ?omnia et singula? Catholicism of the cradle Catholic or the apologetics Catholic.  I am not suggesting that Percy had no feelings for the Church or for Catholic tradition?he once took Shelby Foote to a Solemn High Mass with Gregorian Chant and incense?but that he was much more likely, as Marcus seems to hint, to filter the Church?s perspective through his own than vice versa.
>
> Chuck Lowry
> Brooklyn, New York
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On Jul 23, 2020, at 11:40 AM, Marcus Smith <marcus AT loyno.edu> wrote:
>>
>> ?
>> ? if we
>> accept Percy's Catholicism."
>>
>> I?m sort of uneasy with the (frequent) efforts to invoke Percy as a touchstone for various Catholic doctrinal issues.  We knew Walker and Bunt and their daughters for 20+ years.  We visited them.  They were guests in our house.  We went to some semiotic conferences with Walker.  I certainly ?accept? that Walker was a Catholic.  A serious Catholic.  But like all of us he was (and is) a complex mystery.   I wouldn?t begin to try to invoke his faith to support any particular doctrines, unless it is the play choices of an LSU football coach.  Also, Percy started out as a Presbyterian (I think) as well as traversing a period of non-believing.  He understood all these languages and dialects and could and did run them through his conversations.  But except for LSU football, I would move carefully before invoking Percy?s faith for particular doctrinal claims.
>>
>>> On Wed, Jul 22, 2020 at 8:48 PM <percy-l-request AT lists.ibiblio.org> wrote:
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>>> Today's Topics:
>>>
>>>   1. Happiness and the Meaning of Life (Steve Petrica)
>>>   2. Re: Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, Issue 9 (Thomas Gollier)
>>>   3. Re: Happiness and the Meaning of Life (janetcantor37 AT yahoo.com)
>>>
>>>
>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> Message: 1
>>> Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2020 19:35:58 -0500
>>> From: Steve Petrica <steve.petrica AT gmail.com>
>>> To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion"
>>>        <percy-l AT lists.ibiblio.org>
>>> Subject: [percy-l] Happiness and the Meaning of Life
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>>> Bishop Barron's Word on Fire Institute has been streaming a lecture series
>>> on "Happiness and the Meaning of Life," by University of South Carolina
>>> philosophy professor Jennifer Frey. In lesson 5 of the series, she
>>> presents *The
>>> Moviegoer* as a "perceptive diagnosis of our malaise and our attempts to
>>> relieve our deep sadness with countless distractions."
>>>
>>> https://wordonfire.institute/sin-self-knowledge-and-the-search-for-meaning
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>>> Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2020 18:45:55 -0700
>>> From: Thomas Gollier <tgollier AT gmail.com>
>>> To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion"
>>>        <percy-l AT lists.ibiblio.org>
>>> Subject: Re: [percy-l] Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, Issue 9
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>>>
>>> Mike and David,
>>>
>>> Mike, you seem to have zeroed in on the crux of this when you write: "if we
>>> accept Percy's Catholicism."
>>> For coming to Percy via his interest in Peirce's' semiotic and French
>>> existentialism, his Catholicism has
>>> been an ongoing fly in the ointment for me.  Although I realize this is his
>>> calling card with many of his readers,
>>> it just doesn't seem to fit philosophically, at least until I read
>>> 'Lancelot' and embroiled myself in this discussion.
>>> Perhaps I can clarify what I mean by back to a phrase, "belief in an
>>> objective moral order," that you used in
>>> your first message opening this topic.
>>>
>>> A moral order, it seems to me, is an inherently subjective phenomenon.  It
>>> can be shared intersubjectively,
>>> take on various objective trappings, and be even shared by so many over
>>> such long periods of time that there
>>> is some justification for referring to it legally as an "institution" or
>>> semantically as "objective."  And, in fact,
>>> Catholicism has historically sought to increase its intersubjective mass by
>>> aggressively proselytizing itself
>>> around the world.  But in an essentially important way, a moral order
>>> remains subjective phenomenon
>>> regardless of the extent of its intersubjective acceptance.  A moral order
>>> can only gain intersubjectivity by
>>> being accepted and internalized by individual subjects as their own.
>>>
>>> A moral order that a person has inherited or internalized from others, with
>>> whatever personal quirks they
>>> may have added to it, doesn't become an "objective reality" until they
>>> implement it in their own interactions
>>> with others. And, this seems to be what Lancelot has resolved to do at the
>>> end of the novel. He is going
>>> to personally implement his moral order, such as it is, in his own
>>> interactions with others. He hopes, even
>>> assumes, many others agree with him, but if they don't that won't change
>>> anything about what he intends
>>> to do.  His resolution to make his moral order the basis of his objective
>>> interactions with others is what is
>>> needed to get released and to find absolution.
>>>
>>> And David, I have to admit I was startled when, after going through I don't
>>> know how many pages of
>>> Lancelot's "confession," I read you writing: "It seems to me the
>>> "transformation" is that of Fr. John (Percival).
>>> But after mulling it over, Percival does seem to get to a similar
>>> resolution and absolution in the course of
>>> the novel.  For he resolves to put his own more traditional Catholic moral
>>> order into action on a local level.
>>> I'm just kind of getting an inkling of what a powerful figure the local
>>> priest could be.  Someone knowing
>>> everyone and their histories in the village that you could go to when you
>>> were lost.  You could lay out what
>>> was wrong, maybe where we went wrong, how and why we got where you are, and
>>> the priest could give
>>> you absolution, a restart back on the right path.  By "going native"
>>> Percival would be making his moral order
>>> existentially objective as well.
>>>
>>> And then there was Anna?  She was communicating again and was being
>>> released too.
>>>
>>> In fact, Percy has got me thinking at all kinds of confessions ? not just
>>> those to priests and psychiatrists,
>>> but also those made to parole boards, alcoholics anonymous, and such as
>>> that.  They all demand contrition
>>> and they all provide absolution, but they all seem to have very different
>>> standards as to what produces or
>>> qualifies for that absolution.  They certainly seem to play a bigger role
>>> in our lives than I thought before
>>> reading this novel.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Tom
>>>
>>> On Mon, Jul 20, 2020 at 10:09 AM Michael Larson <larsonovic AT gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Tom,
>>>>
>>>> I think the postulation that Lancelot and Percival are both in the
>>>> afterlife is viable (and as I mentioned, intriguing), but it is less
>>>> hopeful for Lancelot, at least if we accept Percy's Catholicism. People
>>>> have different ideas about heaven, it's true, but that does not preclude it
>>>> from being a real place that exists quite apart from people's anticipatory
>>>> perceptions of it.
>>>>
>>>> You propose that heaven (or hell) is simply a person left unpretentiously
>>>> with himself. What makes it one or the other--heaven or hell--is then
>>>> presumably how one feels about one's real self, after all pretensions have
>>>> been stripped away. This is, of course, an entirely subjective notion--one
>>>> person's heaven might be another's hell (which is maybe what you were
>>>> getting at with "pick your poison"), and neither heaven nor hell could be
>>>> communal, nor would either represent any particular posture toward the
>>>> divine, as the perimeter of each state is confined to the individual in
>>>> question.
>>>>
>>>> But Lancelot is describing something objective (a created world) and
>>>> communal (how society ought to be) and with a certain posture toward God
>>>> (in Lance's case, anger followed by disillusionment). It might be a
>>>> description of how he would make heaven on earth if he were in charge. But
>>>> he is also aware that Percival does not align with him, that Percival has
>>>> attached himself to something that transcends himself and his own ideas.
>>>> And Lance is open-minded enough to acknowledge the possibility that
>>>> Percival may even be right. i.e. "It's my way or it's your way, but it's
>>>> not their way." And Percival agrees, "Yes."
>>>>
>>>> So where does that leave them? In Catholic teaching, purgatory is a
>>>> refining fire set aside for those who die in a state of grace (no
>>>> unrepentant mortal sin), a final purification before the beatific vision.
>>>> But if Lance is dead, he has not died in a state of grace. "... no
>>>> confession forthcoming, Father, as you well know ... I feel nothing now
>>>> except a certain coldness" (253). If he is dead, Lance's state is fixed,
>>>> according to Catholic teaching, and the thing Percival has to tell him, the
>>>> thing that gives his gaze upon Lance such sadness (254) is that Lance's
>>>> release from prison is a release into hell. The prison itself, the long
>>>> recounting of his crime, has been his particular examination, upon death.
>>>> And now the judgment of his chosen state lies before him. Yes, a new
>>>> beginning of sorts but not a happy one.
>>>>
>>>> In this interpretation, though, I think there is no reason to assume that
>>>> Percival died with Lance in the explosion. The strange silence of Percival
>>>> over the course of the novel makes the encounter between the two men feel
>>>> more like there is a kind of barrier, as between the living and the dead.
>>>> We might even theorize that Lance's witnessing of Percival's prayer in the
>>>> cemetery (254) is actually taking place at his own (Lance's own) grave,
>>>> that Percival's prayer for the dead is for Lance. On the side of life,
>>>> Percival cannot know the state of Lance's soul, so in charity, he prays.
>>>> But at the final meeting of the novel, he does seem to know Lance's fate,
>>>> and further maybe even to have been given the task of telling Lance.
>>>>
>>>> On the other hand, if neither man has died and Lance has truly been
>>>> telling his story from a prison/hospital in the temporal realm, then we can
>>>> speculate that the post-novel words of Percival may indeed begin to bring
>>>> Lance toward sorrow and repentance, followed by redemption. At novel's end,
>>>> he feels nothing but coldness. Perhaps that is the very nadir he had to
>>>> reach in order to find life.
>>>>
>>>> Mike
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2020 18:04:28 +0000
>>>>> From: "Beck, David A" <dabeck AT iupui.edu>
>>>>> To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion"
>>>>>        <percy-l AT lists.ibiblio.org>
>>>>> Subject: Re: [percy-l] [External] Re:  Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, Issue
>>>>>        6
>>>>> Message-ID: <1595009067780.10724 AT iupui.edu" target="_blank">1595009067780.10724 AT iupui.edu>
>>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm not sure we can go as far as saying Lance found redemption. I didn't
>>>>> see any evidence of that. He makes his confession but doesn't seem to
>>>>> bothered by what he has done. He didn't receive absolution, because he
>>>>> wasn't repentant.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>> It seems to me the "transformation" is that of Fr. John (Percival). At
>>>>> first, he is troubled, abstracted, and seems to be having doubts. After
>>>>> hearing Lance's ravings, he realizes that he has to make a choice. Then he
>>>>> returns wearing his clerical "outfit" and seems to have found renewal in
>>>>> his faith. I read somewhere (did Percy say it?) that Fr. John is the real
>>>>> protagonist.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>> If I'm wrong, I've led many a college student astray over the years. :-)
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>> Just my two cents.
>>>>>
>>>>> -David
>>>>>
>>>>> David Beck
>>>>> Senior Lecturer
>>>>> English Department
>>>>> Indiana University and Purdue University at Indianapolis
>>>>> 425 University Boulevard, CA 343-E
>>>>> Indianapolis, IN 46202
>>>>> 317-278-2550
>>>>>
>>>>
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>>> Message: 3
>>> Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2020 01:48:07 +0000 (UTC)
>>> From: "janetcantor37 AT yahoo.com" <janetcantor37 AT yahoo.com>
>>> To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion"
>>>        <percy-l AT lists.ibiblio.org>
>>> Subject: Re: [percy-l] Happiness and the Meaning of Life
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>>>
>>> I must confess I only listened to the fifth lesson about The Moviegoer. Professor Frey was exquisite in her reading of the novel.
>>> I have always wondered why I love Percy and have never figured it out.I am not Catholic, Southern, able to understand philosophy, or filled with malaise. ?Yet there is something speaking directly to me in his novels. And I love his humor.
>>> The only thing in this whole presentation that gave me pause in lesson five is the way Binx's aunt is described. To me she is one aspect of life that must make up the whole of a person for him to be an integrated soul.?
>>> So many who read Percy, particularly those who are attracted to the Christian side of him, dismiss his aunt. I did not. Conscience comes from our not wanting to?often G-d, yes, but it also comes from knowing right from wrong and not wanting to offend those who have our best?interests at heart.?
>>> I was astounded by the beautiful way the professor's words?here so aptly described the novel.
>>> Thank you for this.
>>> Janet Cantor
>>>    On Wednesday, July 22, 2020, 08:36:49 PM EDT, Steve Petrica <steve.petrica AT gmail.com> wrote: 
>>>
>>> Bishop Barron's Word on Fire Institute has been streaming a lecture series on "Happiness and the Meaning of Life," by University of South Carolina philosophy professor Jennifer Frey. In lesson 5 of the series, she presents The Moviegoer as a "perceptive diagnosis of our malaise and our attempts to relieve our deep sadness with countless distractions."
>>>
>>> https://wordonfire.institute/sin-self-knowledge-and-the-search-for-meaning
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