Good point. Percy said language was
necessary for consciousness. That’s something I’ve been trying to
decipher. What exactly is he meaning by consciousness? Are my cats not
conscious? They definitely feel. Are they only conscious to the point of
survival impulses, instinct, and the emotions related to the two? I think if
we interpret Percy’s claim, it has got to mean that you can’t know
something beyond survival impulses unless you have language. You can’t
be aware of the inevitable arrival of death, and so can’t experience “the
denial of death” and the anxiety of death and the need for a causa sui
(cf. Ernest Becker) – or other human emotions, such as guilt and regret
and redemption. (I’m quite certain my cats don’t feel guilt.) Is
that what he means by consciousness?
The huge evolutionary gap that Langer
speaks of, that Robert points out, might explain why Percy continually insisted
on a qualitative difference – it really seems that way if the
quantitative difference is so big. Though if it’s really quantitative,
there’s a whole separate set of implications about who man is and how he
differs from other creatures – that are belied if it’s qualitative.
Karey
From:
percy-l-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:percy-l-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of RHONDA MCDONNELL
Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2008 1:34
PM
To: Percy-L:
Literary and Philosophical Discussion
Subject: Re: [percy-l] Chimp is a
challenge
Another question: Can you know
something (beyond survival impulses) without having the language to articulate
it?
--Rhonda
"You live in a
deranged age, more deranged than usual, because in spite of great scientific
and technological advances, man has not the faintest idea of who he is or what
he is doing."
Walker Percy
> Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2008
11:50:08 -0400
> To: percy-l AT lists.ibiblio.org
> From: armstron AT ohiou.edu
> Subject: Re: [percy-l] Chimp is a challenge
>
> Question: Do you know something without knowing that you know?
>
> Ken A
>
> At 09:32 AM 3/25/2008, you wrote:
> >List,
> >
> > I've always wondered why, in this age old debate, more has not been
made
> > of the degree of quantitative difference.
> >
> >Even without getting to the question of qualitative difference, one
must
> >admit that the difference in quantity is huge--orders of magnitude.
Apes
> >in the wild may have a few dozen symbols. Human symbols number in the
> >hundreds of thousands at least.
> >
> >The extent of the difference in quantity suggests, though certainly
does
> >not prove, a qualitative difference.
> >
> >I don't have Langer in front of me, but I recall one thing she wrote
in
> >_New Key_--
> >"Between the clearest animal call of love or warning or anger,
and man's
> >least, trivial word, there lies a whole day of Creation--or in modern
> >phrase, a whole chapter of evolution." (NY: Mentor Books) p.83.
> >
> > Robert
> >
> >
> >
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: Karey Perkins <karey1 AT charter.net>
> >Date: Monday, March 24, 2008 6:48
> >Subject: Re: [percy-l] Chimp is a challenge
> >To: "'Percy-L: Literary and
Philosophical Discussion'"
> ><percy-l AT lists.ibiblio.org>
> >
> > > Rhonda,
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Of course, Nikki knows more about what Walker said personally, but
> > > in his
> > > writings he always maintained that chimps and other animals
could
> > > communicate dyadically - but their sign language and other
> > > communicationnever rose above the "sign" level to
symbol. He
> > > seemed pretty adamant about
> > > that, even though it was not written in stone in the general
> > > field, as Nikki
> > > says. Interestingly, Susanne Langer, his mentor in symbol (of
> > > sorts), felt
> > > otherwise - that higher primates were capable of rudimentary
> > > symbol, and
> > > gives examples in her "Philosophy in a New Key." For Walker it
> > > seems to be
> > > a qualitative difference; for Langer, it was quantitative.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Karey
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _____
> > >
> > > From: percy-l-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org
> > > [mailto:percy-l-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of RHONDA
> > > MCDONNELLSent: Monday, March 24, 2008 12:21 AM
> > > To: Percy-L: Literary and
Philosophical Discussion
> > > Subject: Re: [percy-l] Chimp is a challenge
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Nikki--
> > >
> > > Can you elaborate a little on the debate you refer to? Was Walker
> > > absolutein his stance, or did he recognize that dyadic
> > > communication exists between
> > > the "lower orders"? I'm wondering if it was triadic
communication
> > > that was
> > > the sticking point for him, and therefore the true point of
argument?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --Rhonda
> > >
> > > "You live in a deranged age, more deranged than usual,
because in
> > > spite of
> > > great scientific and technological advances, man has not the
> > > faintest idea
> > > of who he is or what he is doing."
> > >
> > > Walker Percy
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _____
> > >
> > >
> > > From: Nikkibar AT aol.com
> > > Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2008 23:43:24 -0400
> > > To: percy-l AT lists.ibiblio.org
> > > Subject: Re: [percy-l] Chimp is a challenge
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Dear Marcus,
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > You bring up with painful nostalgia, a long running argument
that
> > > i carried
> > > on with Walker
for a great many years. He always asserted that
> > > animals of
> > > the "lower orders" were unable to communicate -- not
only with us
> > > but with
> > > one another, while I held to the view that 1) he was probably
> > > wrong and or
> > > 2) that in any event we could never be certain but 3) that it
was
> > > a measure
> > > of our hubris to deny the possibility. As times have gone
forward
> > > since his
> > > death, the empirical jury is still out in my view, but I think
my
> > > positiongrows stronger day by day.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Nikki
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _____
> > >
> > >
> > > Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch
> > > <http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric->
> > stromer?video=15?ncid=aolhom00030000000001> the video on AOL Home.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _____
> > >
> > > Test your Star IQ Play now!
> > >
<http://club.live.com/red_carpet_reveal.aspx?icid=redcarpet_HMTAGMAR>
> > >
> > >
> >--
> >An archive of all list discussion is available at
> >https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/percy-l/
> >
> >Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy
>
> --
> An archive of all list discussion is available at
https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/percy-l/
>
> Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy
Test your Star IQ Play now!
