Percy-L: Literary, Religious, Scientific, and Philosophical Discussion of Walker Percy

["RHONDA MCDONNELL" <rhonda_mcdonnell AT msn.com>]

I've emerged from under the end of semester essays to find you all engaged 
in lively and interesting discussion--seems like the best things always 
happen when I'm out of the room, so to speak.

I find it necessary to make a simple distinction: the continual reference to 
speaking undershoots Walker's mark.  After all, honey bees speak to each 
other when they communicate the location of the latest load of pollen. The 
difference is, their communication is dyadic, as is that of penguins, who 
find each other by the sound of the voice, and, I suspect, dolphins and 
whales.  What creates the triadic phenomena is symbolizing, which we utter 
with our voices and create in our art. It is that which sets us apart--that 
we exist so much of the time within a sort of metaphoric soup (one made of 
metaphors, I mean). And this, in the end, is tied to words which represent 
for us the world both material and spiritual.

This leads me to a final point, regarding the discussion of creation -- I'm 
not sure we can assume that all agree with creatio ex nihilo -- what of 
those who hold with the doctrine of creatio ex deo? And, one last thing:

In the beginning was God and the Word was with God and the Word was God.
He was in the beginning with God.
All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was 
made.

I don't think the language is an accident, as it is consistently translated 
in the same fashion.  So, if all things were created in part through the use 
of language "let there be light" etc, then the argument that it is through 
our language that we arc toward the divine is sound, presupposing that we 
also have faith.

--Rhonda

"I'd rather learn from one bird how to sing
than teach ten thousand stars how not to dance"

                                   e.e. cummings


> From: "Marcus" <marcus AT loyno.edu>
> Reply-To: marcus AT loyno.edu,"Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" 
> <percy-l AT lists.ibiblio.org>
> To: percy-l AT lists.ibiblio.org
> Subject: Re: [percy-l] Percy-L Digest, Vol 48, Issue 7
> Date: Wed, 09 May 2007 08:54:27 -0500
>
> Michael Larson states:
>
> "Which is all to say that language is not likely to be some
> evolutionary
> breakthrough but rather a design feature in a unique
> creature, a
> creature whose nature must accommodate two realms: those of
> both matter
> and spirit."
>
> Doesn't this really excellent discussion lead us to revise
> slightly:
>
> "Which is all to say that language is not likely to be some
> evolutionary
> breakthrough but rather a design feature in a unique
> creature, a
> creature whose nature must accommodate two realms: those of
> both matter
> and SPEAKING."
>
> Marcus Smith
> New Orleans
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message Follows -----
> From: percy-l-request AT lists.ibiblio.org
> To: percy-l AT lists.ibiblio.org
> Subject: Percy-L Digest, Vol 48, Issue 7
> Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 21:45:42 -0400
>
> > Send Percy-L mailing list submissions to
> >     percy-l AT lists.ibiblio.org
> >
> > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> >     http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l
> > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help'
> > to
> >     percy-l-request AT lists.ibiblio.org
> >
> > You can reach the person managing the list at
> >     percy-l-owner AT lists.ibiblio.org
> >
> > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more
> > specific than "Re: Contents of Percy-L digest..."
> >
> >
> > Today's Topics:
> >
> >    1. Re: Language is a clue (Tammy.DiBenedetto AT rcc.edu)
> >    2. Re: Language is a clue (robert.g.eckert AT us.army.mil)
> >    3. Re: Language is a clue (Tommy Armstrong)
> >
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------------------
> > ------------
> >
> > Message: 1
> > Date: Tue, 8 May 2007 11:00:02 -0700
> > From: <Tammy.DiBenedetto AT rcc.edu>
> > Subject: Re: [percy-l] Language is a clue
> > To: <percy-l AT lists.ibiblio.org>,
> > <percy-l AT lists.ibiblio.org> Message-ID:
> > <356EF64B3DA9A640BE06A772C985DE300124E3 AT MSGSRV2.rccd.net>
> > Content-Type: text/plain;    charset="iso-8859-1"
> >
> > Thank you, Michael, for that pithy clarification of what I
> > consider to be Percy's most significant contribution to
> > the existentialist--or perhaps more precisely, the
> > human--dilemma.
> >
> >
> >
> > I'm currently working on my dissertation, a study of the
> > construct of race in Percy's novels. The dissertation
> > calls upon African American studies as well as
> > post-colonial studies in order to discern and/or to
> > illustrate how our peculiar notions of American
> > "whiteness" tie directly to what Toni Morrison refers to
> > as an "Africanist presence."  (It's the only way I could
> > get away with devoting the entire dissertation to Percy,
> > but it really does make for a fascinating study.)  All of
> > this to explain why I've been lurking rather than engaging
> > in the conversations for the few months in which I've been
> > aware of this list.  I'd love to participate more, but,
> > well, I'm writing a dissertation...
> >
> >
> >
> > I did have to take the opportunity, though, to thank
> > Michael for his insightful and evocative explanation of
> > this cornerstone of Percian thought.
> >
> >
> > All the best,
> >
> > Tammy DiBenedetto
> >
> > Tammy DiBenedetto
> > Associate Professor, English
> > Riverside City College
> > 4800 Magnolia Avenue
> > Riverside, CA  92506
> > 951.222.8271
> >
> >
> > Pe <mailto:Percy-l-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org>
> > rcy-l-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org on behalf of Michael
> > Larson Sent: Tue 5/8/2007 7:46 AM
> > To: percy-l AT lists.ibiblio.org
> > Subject: [percy-l] Language is a clue
> >
> >
> >
> > Dear John, Robert, and others,
> >
> > This is from "The Mystery of Language," THE MESSAGE IN THE
> > BOTTLE (p. 158):
> >
> > "An awareness of the nature of language must have the
> > greatest possible consequences for our minimal concept of
> > man. For one thing it must reveal the ordinary secular
> > concept of man held in the West as not merely inadequate
> > but quite simply mistaken. I do not refer to the Christian
> > idea of man as a composite of body and soul, a belief
> > which is professed by some and given lip service by many
> > but which can hardly be said to be a working assumption of
> > secular learning. We see man--when I say we, I mean 95 per
> > cent of those who attended American high schools and
> > universities--as the highest of the organisms: He stands
> > erect, he apposes thumb and forefinger, his language is
> > far more complex than that of the most advanced Cebus
> > azarae. But the difference is quantitative, not
> > qualitative. Man is a higher organism, standing in direct
> > continuity with rocks, soil, fungi, protozoa, and mammals.
> >
> > This happens not to be true, however, and in a way it is
> > unfortunate. I say unfortunate because it means the
> > shattering of the old dream of the Enlightenment--that an
> > objective-explanatory-causal science can discover and set
> > forth all the knowledge of which man is capable. The dream
> > is drawing to a close. The existentialists have taught us
> > that what man is cannot be grasped by the sciences of man.
> > The case is rather that man's science is one of the things
> > that man does, a mode of existence. Another mode is
> > speech. Man is not merely a higher organism responding to
> > and controlling his environment. He is, in Heidegger's
> > words, that being in the world whose calling it is to find
> > a name for Being, to give testimony to it, and to provide
> > for it a clearing."
> >
> >
> > So Percy argues here, as he does in many places, that the
> > human capacity for language is what separates us from the
> > animals. The Christian philosophers, to whose work he
> > makes implicit reference here, would say that the animals
> > are of an entirely material (thus, dyadic) order and that
> > God and the angels are of an entirely spiritual
> > (non-material) order. But man is a middle creature, both
> > material and spiritual (the highest of the former and the
> > lowest of the latter), and the triadic nature of language
> > is both a material clue for this reality and the means by
> > which this composite creature (man) has access to that
> > which is higher. Language itself is always
> > material--whether written or spoken--but it allows by way
> > of signification for consciousness and contemplation,
> > which is of the spiritual order. And by a mere sleight of
> > words, Percy gets an existentialist, Heidegger, to
> > describe in grand terms, what Aquinas had fulfilled
> > centuries earlier, in the high Middle Ages, long before
> > "the old dream of the Enlightenment" was even born.
> >
> > Which is all to say that language is not likely to be some
> > evolutionary breakthrough but rather a design feature in a
> > unique creature, a creature whose nature must accommodate
> > two realms: those of both matter and spirit. Language, for
> > Percy, was a clue and ultimately a proof for the spiritual
> > order; and because it is rooted in the material world, I
> > think he thought he had something that even the
> > rationalist-naturalist intelligentsia would have to
> > acknowledge.
> >
> > Best regards,
> > Michael Larson
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: percy-l-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org
> > [mailto:percy-l-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of
> > percy-l-request AT lists.ibiblio.org
> > Sent: Sunday, May 06, 2007 11:00 AM
> > To: percy-l AT lists.ibiblio.org
> > Subject: Percy-L Digest, Vol 48, Issue 4
> >
> > Send Percy-L mailing list submissions to
> >         percy-l AT lists.ibiblio.org
> >
> > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> >         http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l
> > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help'
> > to
> >         percy-l-request AT lists.ibiblio.org
> >
> > You can reach the person managing the list at
> >         percy-l-owner AT lists.ibiblio.org
> >
> > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more
> > specific than "Re: Contents of Percy-L digest..."
> >
> >
> > Today's Topics:
> >
> >    1. Re: The Naked Ape's Triadic Threshold
> >       (robert.g.eckert AT us.army.mil)
> >    2. Re: The Naked Ape's Triadic Threshold (John Harvey)
> >    3. Resistance is Futile, The Machine is Us/ing Us (John
> > Harvey)
> >
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------------------
> > ------------
> >
> > Message: 1
> > Date: Sat, 05 May 2007 18:42:48 -0600
> > From: <robert.g.eckert AT us.army.mil>
> > Subject: Re: [percy-l] The Naked Ape's Triadic Threshold
> > To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion"
> >         <percy-l AT lists.ibiblio.org>
> > Message-ID: <e4bebacbbc66.463cd028 AT us.army.mil>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > John Harvey asks:
> >
> > > How does Percy explicitly suggest that symbol use is
> > > related to "the
> > > triadic threshold?" Or, are there secondary sources for
> > > this connection? In either case, I would appreciate
> > > knowing where I can get more information on these ideas.
> > >
> >
> > I'm going on memory here-- I'm pretty sure "A Semiotic
> > Primer of the Self" speaks to this connection.
> >
> > The origin of symbol use is identical to the crossing of
> > the triadic threshold. At some point our brain evolved the
> > ability to synthesize the triadic relation between
> > signifier and signified, linguistic signs and their
> > referents. At that point we evolved a new mode of being.
> >
> > I tried dealing with this subject in "Walker Percy and the
> > Mind/Body Problem'  June 1999 International Philosophical
> > Quarterly. [shameless self-promotion] Pretty naive writing
> > on subjects I didn't really understand.
> >
> > I know Percy deals with the subject in essays in The
> > Message in the Bottle also.
> >
> > This triadic threshold question is THE question. I have to
> > think that understanding where we come from will help us
> > know where we are going.
> >
> > Spc Robert Eckert
> > 172 Chemical Corp
> > Ft. Riley, Kansas 66442
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 2
> > Date: Sun, 06 May 2007 07:10:17 -0500
> > From: John Harvey <johnharvey AT earthlink.net>
> > Subject: Re: [percy-l] The Naked Ape's Triadic Threshold
> > To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion"
> >         <percy-l AT lists.ibiblio.org>
> > Message-ID:
> > <E1HkfZC-0004Uu-00 AT pop-savannah.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> >
> > Robert Eckert, List
> >
> > At 06:42 PM 5/5/2007 -0600, Spc Robert Eckert wrote:
> >
> > >I'm going on memory here-- I'm pretty sure "A Semiotic
> > Primer of the >Self" speaks to this connection [between
> > symbol use and triadic threshold].
> >
> > A quick Google search revealed that this essay is included
> > in Lost in the Cosmos which I just ordered so I could
> > participate in the seminar/discussion at www.korrekiv.org.
> >
> > >  The origin of symbol use is identical to the crossing
> > > of the triadic threshold. At some point our brain
> > > evolved the ability to synthesize the triadic relation
> > > between signifier and signified, linguistic signs and
> > > their referents. At that point we evolved a new mode of
> > being. >
> > >I tried dealing with this subject in "Walker Percy and
> > the Mind/Body >Problem'  June 1999 International
> > Philosophical Quarterly. >[shameless self-promotion]
> > Pretty naive writing on subjects I didn't >really
> > understand. >
> > >I know Percy deals with the subject in essays in The
> > Message in the >Bottle also.
> > >
> > >This triadic threshold question is THE question. I have
> > to think >that understanding where we come from will help
> > us know where we are going.
> >
> > Although I agree with your sentiments, I would put greater
> > emphasis on our future. I believe that THE question is
> > learning how to build secure bridges across Percy's
> > Fateful Rift. Of course, understanding the triadic
> > threshold is necessary for interpreting this rift properly
> > and building secure bridges on a firm foundation. That is
> > the reason I am trying to get a handle on your comments.
> >
> > Thanks for your suggestions. I am just beginning to
> > retrain my dyadic eyes to see the triadic forest through
> > what appear to be dyadic trees.
> >
> > Respectfully,
> >
> > John
> > -------------- next part --------------
> > An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> > URL:
> >
> https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/percy-l/attachments/20070506/3502d283
> > /attachment-0001.htm
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 3
> > Date: Sun, 06 May 2007 08:39:17 -0500
> > From: John Harvey <johnharvey AT earthlink.net>
> > Subject: [percy-l] Resistance is Futile, The Machine is
> > Us/ing Us To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical
> > Discussion"
> >         <percy-l AT lists.ibiblio.org>
> > Message-ID:
> > <E1HkgxI-0005Fv-00 AT pop-satin.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> >
> > List,
> >
> > As I've said many times, "I'm a perennial optimist in the
> > face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary."
> >
> > However, I also believe that we optimists need to attract
> > as much attention to evidence of the problem as we can
> > muster to convince those in doubt. Hopefully, when the
> > evidence is more widely understood, it will convince a few
> > more that we need to build secure bridges across the
> > Peircean triadic/dyadic divide which Percy called A
> > Fateful Rift.
> >
> > At the risk of preaching to the choir, I am directing your
> > attention to this posting Resistance is Futile
> > <http://www.korrektiv.org/2007/05/resistance-is-futile.htm
> > l> I believe it is a sign that concern is alive and
> > growing.
> >
> > BTW www.korrektiv.org is the blog that is currently
> > hosting the seminar/discussion about Percy's Lost in the
> > Cosmos: The Last Self-Help Book.
> >
> > I am also recommending these signposts to some of my
> > unknowing or doubting friends who need to be nudged.
> >
> > Respectfully,
> >
> > John
> > -------------- next part --------------
> > An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> > URL:
> >
> https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/percy-l/attachments/20070506/547dfae8
> > /attachment-0001.htm
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Percy-L mailing list
> > Percy-L AT lists.ibiblio.org
> > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l
> >
> >
> > End of Percy-L Digest, Vol 48, Issue 4
> > **************************************
> > --
> > An archive of all list discussion is available at
> > https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/percy-l/
> >
> > Visit the Walker Percy Project at
> > http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 2
> > Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 19:14:36 -0500
> > From: <robert.g.eckert AT us.army.mil>
> > Subject: Re: [percy-l] Language is a clue
> > To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion"
> >     <percy-l AT lists.ibiblio.org>
> > Message-ID: <e322faa6bfb6.4640cc1c AT us.army.mil>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
> >
> > The conflict between language being an "evolutionary
> > breakthrough" or a "design feature" is a false one.
> >
> > Language is a feature that was created as all other
> > features were created.
> >
> > The process of creation is the process of natural
> > selection.
> >
> > Evolutionary chance is the process by which we were
> > created by the Creator.
> >
> > Chance is God unrecognized.
> >
> > Spc Robert Eckert
> > 172 Chemical Corp
> > Ft. Riley, KS  66442
> >
> > "Faith requires us to be materialists without flinching"
> >     - Peirce
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Michael Larson
> > Date: Tuesday, May 8, 2007 9:46
> > Subject: [percy-l] Language is a clue
> > To: percy-l AT lists.ibiblio.org
> >
> > > Dear John, Robert, and others,
> > >
> > > This is from "The Mystery of Language," THE MESSAGE IN
> > > THE BOTTLE (p. 158):
> > >
> > > "An awareness of the nature of language must have the
> > > greatest  possibleconsequences for our minimal concept
> > > of man. For one thing  it must
> > > reveal the ordinary secular concept of man held in the
> > > West as not merely inadequate but quite simply mistaken.
> > > I do not refer to the Christian idea of man as a
> > > composite of body and soul, a belief  which is
> > > professed by some and given lip service by many but
> > > which can  hardly be
> > > said to be a working assumption of secular learning. We
> > > see man-- when I
> > > say we, I mean 95 per cent of those who attended
> > > American high schools and universities--as the highest
> > > of the organisms: He stands  erect, he
> > > apposes thumb and forefinger, his language is far more
> > > complex  than that
> > > of the most advanced Cebus azarae. But the difference is
> > > quantitative, not qualitative. Man is a higher organism,
> > > standing in direct  continuitywith rocks, soil, fungi,
> > > protozoa, and mammals.
> > > This happens not to be true, however, and in a way it is
> > > unfortunate. I
> > > say unfortunate because it means the shattering of the
> > > old dream  of the
> > > Enlightenment--that an objective-explanatory-causal
> > > science can  discoverand set forth all the knowledge of
> > > which man is capable.  The dream is
> > > drawing to a close. The existentialists have taught us
> > > that what  man is
> > > cannot be grasped by the sciences of man. The case is
> > > rather that  man'sscience is one of the things that man
> > > does, a mode of  existence. Another
> > > mode is speech. Man is not merely a higher organism
> > > responding to and controlling his environment. He is, in
> > > Heidegger's words, that  being in
> > > the world whose calling it is to find a name for Being,
> > > to give testimony to it, and to provide for it a
> > > clearing."
> > >
> > > So Percy argues here, as he does in many places, that
> > > the human  capacityfor language is what separates us
> > > from the animals. The  Christianphilosophers, to whose
> > > work he makes implicit reference  here, would say
> > > that the animals are of an entirely material (thus,
> > > dyadic) order and that God and the angels are of an
> > > entirely spiritual (non-material) order. But man is a
> > > middle creature, both material and spiritual (the
> > highest of the former and the lowest of the latter), and
> > > the triadic nature of language is both a material clue
> > > for this reality and the means by which this composite
> > > creature (man) has access to that  which is
> > > higher. Language itself is always material--whether
> > > written or spoken--but it allows by way of signification
> > > for consciousness and contemplation, which is of the
> > > spiritual order. And by a mere  sleight of
> > > words, Percy gets an existentialist, Heidegger, to
> > > describe in grand terms, what Aquinas had fulfilled
> > > centuries earlier, in the high  MiddleAges, long before
> > > "the old dream of the Enlightenment" was  even born.
> > >
> > > Which is all to say that language is not likely to be
> > > some  evolutionarybreakthrough but rather a design
> > > feature in a unique  creature, a
> > > creature whose nature must accommodate two realms: those
> > > of both  matterand spirit. Language, for Percy, was a
> > > clue and ultimately a  proof for
> > > the spiritual order; and because it is rooted in the
> > > material  world, I
> > > think he thought he had something that even the
> > > rationalist-naturalist intelligentsia would have to
> > > acknowledge.
> > > Best regards,
> > > Michael Larson
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: percy-l-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org
> > > [mailto:percy-l-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of
> > > percy-l-request AT lists.ibiblio.org
> > > Sent: Sunday, May 06, 2007 11:00 AM
> > > To: percy-l AT lists.ibiblio.org
> > > Subject: Percy-L Digest, Vol 48, Issue 4
> > >
> > > Send Percy-L mailing list submissions to
> > > percy-l AT lists.ibiblio.org
> > >
> > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web,
> > > visit http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l
> > > or, via email, send a message with subject or body
> > > 'help' to percy-l-request AT lists.ibiblio.org
> > >
> > > You can reach the person managing the list at
> > > percy-l-owner AT lists.ibiblio.org
> > >
> > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is
> > > more specific than "Re: Contents of Percy-L digest..."
> > >
> > >
> > > Today's Topics:
> > >
> > > 1. Re: The Naked Ape's Triadic Threshold
> > > (robert.g.eckert AT us.army.mil)
> > > 2. Re: The Naked Ape's Triadic Threshold (John Harvey)
> > > 3. Resistance is Futile, The Machine is Us/ing Us (John
> > > Harvey)
> > >
> > >
> > ----------------------------------------------------------
> > > --------- ---
> > >
> > > Message: 1
> > > Date: Sat, 05 May 2007 18:42:48 -0600
> > > From:
> > > Subject: Re: [percy-l] The Naked Ape's Triadic Threshold
> > > To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion"
> > >
> > > Message-ID:
> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > John Harvey asks:
> > >
> > > > How does Percy explicitly suggest that symbol use is
> > > > related to  "the
> > > > triadic threshold?" Or, are there secondary sources
> > > > for this  connection? In either case, I would
> > > appreciate knowing where I  can
> > > > get more information on these ideas.
> > > >
> > >
> > > I'm going on memory here-- I'm pretty sure "A Semiotic
> > > Primer of the Self" speaks to this connection.
> > >
> > > The origin of symbol use is identical to the crossing of
> > > the triadic threshold. At some point our brain evolved
> > > the ability to  synthesize the
> > > triadic relation between signifier and signified,
> > > linguistic signs and their referents. At that point we
> > > evolved a new mode of being.
> > > I tried dealing with this subject in "Walker Percy and
> > > the Mind/Body Problem' June 1999 International
> > > Philosophical Quarterly. [shameless self-promotion]
> > > Pretty naive writing on subjects I didn't really
> > > understand.
> > > I know Percy deals with the subject in essays in The
> > > Message in the Bottle also.
> > >
> > > This triadic threshold question is THE question. I have
> > > to think that understanding where we come from will help
> > > us know where we are going.
> > > Spc Robert Eckert
> > > 172 Chemical Corp
> > > Ft. Riley, Kansas 66442
> > >
> > >
> > > ------------------------------
> > >
> > > Message: 2
> > > Date: Sun, 06 May 2007 07:10:17 -0500
> > > From: John Harvey
> > > Subject: Re: [percy-l] The Naked Ape's Triadic Threshold
> > > To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion"
> > >
> > > Message-ID:
> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> > >
> > > Robert Eckert, List
> > >
> > > At 06:42 PM 5/5/2007 -0600, Spc Robert Eckert wrote:
> > >
> > > >I'm going on memory here-- I'm pretty sure "A Semiotic
> > > Primer of  the
> > > >Self" speaks to this connection [between symbol use and
> > > triadic threshold].
> > >
> > > A quick Google search revealed that this essay is
> > > included in Lost  in
> > > the Cosmos which I just ordered so I could participate
> > > in the  seminar/discussion at www.korrekiv.org.
> > >
> > > > The origin of symbol use is identical to the crossing
> > > > of the  triadic threshold. At some point our brain
> > > evolved the ability  to
> > > > synthesize the triadic relation between signifier and
> > > > signified,  linguistic signs and their referents. At
> > > > that point we evolved a  new mode of being.
> > > >
> > > >I tried dealing with this subject in "Walker Percy and
> > > the  Mind/Body
> > > >Problem' June 1999 International Philosophical
> > > Quarterly.  >[shameless self-promotion] Pretty naive
> > > writing on subjects I  didn't
> > > >really understand.
> > > >
> > > >I know Percy deals with the subject in essays in The
> > > Message in  the
> > > >Bottle also.
> > > >
> > > >This triadic threshold question is THE question. I have
> > > to think  >that understanding where we come from will
> > > help us know where we are going.
> > >
> > > Although I agree with your sentiments, I would put
> > > greater  emphasis
> > > on our future. I believe that THE question is learning
> > > how to  build
> > > secure bridges across Percy's Fateful Rift. Of course,
> > > understanding
> > > the triadic threshold is necessary for interpreting this
> > > rift  properly and building secure bridges on a firm
> > > foundation. That is  the reason I am trying to get a
> > > handle on your comments.
> > > Thanks for your suggestions. I am just beginning to
> > > retrain my  dyadic
> > > eyes to see the triadic forest through what appear to be
> > > dyadic trees.
> > > Respectfully,
> > >
> > > John
> > > -------------- next part --------------
> > > An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> > > URL:
> > > https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/percy-
> > > l/attachments/20070506/3502d283/attachment-0001.htm
> > >
> > > ------------------------------
> > >
> > > Message: 3
> > > Date: Sun, 06 May 2007 08:39:17 -0500
> > > From: John Harvey
> > > Subject: [percy-l] Resistance is Futile, The Machine is
> > > Us/ing Us To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical
> > > Discussion"
> > > Message-ID:
> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> > >
> > > List,
> > >
> > > As I've said many times, "I'm a perennial optimist in
> > > the face of  overwhelming evidence to the contrary."
> > >
> > > However, I also believe that we optimists need to
> > > attract as much  attention to evidence of the problem as
> > > we can muster to convince  those in doubt. Hopefully,
> > > when the evidence is more widely  understood, it will
> > > convince a few more that we need to build  secure
> > > bridges across the Peircean triadic/dyadic divide which
> > > Percy  called
> > > A Fateful Rift.
> > >
> > > At the risk of preaching to the choir, I am directing
> > > your  attention
> > > to this posting Resistance is Futile
> > > I
> > > believe it is a sign that concern is alive and growing.
> > >
> > > BTW www.korrektiv.org is the blog that is currently
> > > hosting the  seminar/discussion about Percy's Lost in
> > > the Cosmos: The Last Self- HelpBook.
> > >
> > > I am also recommending these signposts to some of my
> > > unknowing or  doubting friends who need to be nudged.
> > >
> > > Respectfully,
> > >
> > > John
> > > -------------- next part --------------
> > > An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> > > URL:
> > > https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/percy-
> > > l/attachments/20070506/547dfae8/attachment-0001.htm
> > >
> > > ------------------------------
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Percy-L mailing list
> > > Percy-L AT lists.ibiblio.org
> > > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l
> > >
> > >
> > > End of Percy-L Digest, Vol 48, Issue 4
> > > **************************************
> > > --
> > > An archive of all list discussion is available at
> > > https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/percy-l/
> > >
> > > Visit the Walker Percy Project at
> > > http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 3
> > Date: Tue, 8 May 2007 21:45:08 -0400
> > From: "Tommy Armstrong" <tfa AT brickengraver.com>
> > Subject: Re: [percy-l] Language is a clue
> > To: "'Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion'"
> >     <percy-l AT lists.ibiblio.org>
> > Message-ID: <00f401c791db$ad39cc20$07ad6460$@com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain;    charset="us-ascii"
> >
> > I am not it agreement with the statement:
> > "The process of creation is the process of natural
> > selection"
> >
> > An act of creation happens every time a mutation (or
> > divine intervention for that matter) occurs. Billions of
> > acts of creation in the natural world have occurred in the
> > past--most simply did not continue. Natural selection just
> > determines whether that act of creation is allowed to
> > continue. The origin of man-which to me, and I think to
> > Percy, came at  that instant in time where he became
> > triadic in nature.  At that point natural selection ceases
> > to exist in the pre-human sense--the "natural world". Man
> > becomes a cultural being- one that is qualitatively
> > different than any other inhabitant of nature and breaks
> > out of the linearity of natural selection. For he then
> > becomes able to exist outside of the natural world, for he
> > has the ability to create his own world or worlds. He has
> > what one of my professors termed as a "My owness". Unlike
> > dyadic creatures we not only create our own worlds but our
> > own space and that space is not a space of an xyz
> > coordinate system. But that is another discussion.
> >
> > To say that the creation of the concept of "natural
> > selection" itself was created by "evolutionary chance" is
> > I think wrong. The act of creation by a man is not the
> > process of natural selection. And the fact that man has
> > the ability, in fact the imperative, to create his own
> > worlds is because of his acquisition of triadic
> > "behavior". It may very well be that " Evolutionary chance
> > is the process by which we were created by the Creator" ,
> > but how does one really know? In fact, how can one know?
> > And more to the point, what difference does it made if the
> > Creator used chance or directed action to create us-for if
> > one believes in a Creator--he also invented the concept of
> > chance. If He did not, we did.
> >
> >
> > Tommy Armstrong
> > PO Box 484
> > Lillington, NC   27546
> > http://www.brickengraver.com
> >
> > ..with the method of science one beholds what is generally
> > true about individuals, but art beholds what is uniquely
> > true.
> >
> > Walker Percy
> > Signposts in a Strange Land
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: percy-l-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org
> > [mailto:percy-l-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of
> > robert.g.eckert AT us.army.mil
> > Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2007 8:15 PM
> > To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion
> > Subject: Re: [percy-l] Language is a clue
> >
> > The conflict between language being an "evolutionary
> > breakthrough" or a "design feature" is a false one.
> >
> > Language is a feature that was created as all other
> > features were created.
> >
> > The process of creation is the process of natural
> > selection.
> >
> > Evolutionary chance is the process by which we were
> > created by the Creator.
> >
> > Chance is God unrecognized.
> >
> > Spc Robert Eckert
> > 172 Chemical Corp
> > Ft. Riley, KS  66442
> >
> > "Faith requires us to be materialists without flinching"
> >     - Peirce
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Michael Larson
> > Date: Tuesday, May 8, 2007 9:46
> > Subject: [percy-l] Language is a clue
> > To: percy-l AT lists.ibiblio.org
> >
> > > Dear John, Robert, and others,
> > >
> > > This is from "The Mystery of Language," THE MESSAGE IN
> > > THE BOTTLE (p. 158):
> > >
> > > "An awareness of the nature of language must have the
> > > greatest  possibleconsequences for our minimal concept
> > > of man. For one thing  it must
> > > reveal the ordinary secular concept of man held in the
> > > West as not merely inadequate but quite simply mistaken.
> > > I do not refer to the Christian idea of man as a
> > > composite of body and soul, a belief  which is
> > > professed by some and given lip service by many but
> > > which can  hardly be
> > > said to be a working assumption of secular learning. We
> > > see man-- when I
> > > say we, I mean 95 per cent of those who attended
> > > American high schools and universities--as the highest
> > > of the organisms: He stands  erect, he
> > > apposes thumb and forefinger, his language is far more
> > > complex  than that
> > > of the most advanced Cebus azarae. But the difference is
> > > quantitative, not qualitative. Man is a higher organism,
> > > standing in direct  continuitywith rocks, soil, fungi,
> > > protozoa, and mammals.
> > > This happens not to be true, however, and in a way it is
> > > unfortunate. I
> > > say unfortunate because it means the shattering of the
> > > old dream  of the
> > > Enlightenment--that an objective-explanatory-causal
> > > science can  discoverand set forth all the knowledge of
> > > which man is capable.  The dream is
> > > drawing to a close. The existentialists have taught us
> > > that what  man is
> > > cannot be grasped by the sciences of man. The case is
> > > rather that  man'sscience is one of the things that man
> > > does, a mode of  existence. Another
> > > mode is speech. Man is not merely a higher organism
> > > responding to and controlling his environment. He is, in
> > > Heidegger's words, that  being in
> > > the world whose calling it is to find a name for Being,
> > > to give testimony to it, and to provide for it a
> > > clearing."
> > >
> > > So Percy argues here, as he does in many places, that
> > > the human  capacityfor language is what separates us
> > > from the animals. The  Christianphilosophers, to whose
> > > work he makes implicit reference  here, would say
> > > that the animals are of an entirely material (thus,
> > > dyadic) order and that God and the angels are of an
> > > entirely spiritual (non-material) order. But man is a
> > > middle creature, both material and spiritual (the
> > highest of the former and the lowest of the latter), and
> > > the triadic nature of language is both a material clue
> > > for this reality and the means by which this composite
> > > creature (man) has access to that  which is
> > > higher. Language itself is always material--whether
> > > written or spoken--but it allows by way of signification
> > > for consciousness and contemplation, which is of the
> > > spiritual order. And by a mere  sleight of
> > > words, Percy gets an existentialist, Heidegger, to
> > > describe in grand terms, what Aquinas had fulfilled
> > > centuries earlier, in the high  MiddleAges, long before
> > > "the old dream of the Enlightenment" was  even born.
> > >
> > > Which is all to say that language is not likely to be
> > > some  evolutionarybreakthrough but rather a design
> > > feature in a unique  creature, a
> > > creature whose nature must accommodate two realms: those
> > > of both  matterand spirit. Language, for Percy, was a
> > > clue and ultimately a  proof for
> > > the spiritual order; and because it is rooted in the
> > > material  world, I
> > > think he thought he had something that even the
> > > rationalist-naturalist intelligentsia would have to
> > > acknowledge.
> > > Best regards,
> > > Michael Larson
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: percy-l-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org
> > > [mailto:percy-l-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of
> > > percy-l-request AT lists.ibiblio.org
> > > Sent: Sunday, May 06, 2007 11:00 AM
> > > To: percy-l AT lists.ibiblio.org
> > > Subject: Percy-L Digest, Vol 48, Issue 4
> > >
> > > Send Percy-L mailing list submissions to
> > > percy-l AT lists.ibiblio.org
> > >
> > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web,
> > > visit http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l
> > > or, via email, send a message with subject or body
> > > 'help' to percy-l-request AT lists.ibiblio.org
> > >
> > > You can reach the person managing the list at
> > > percy-l-owner AT lists.ibiblio.org
> > >
> > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is
> > > more specific than "Re: Contents of Percy-L digest..."
> > >
> > >
> > > Today's Topics:
> > >
> > > 1. Re: The Naked Ape's Triadic Threshold
> > > (robert.g.eckert AT us.army.mil)
> > > 2. Re: The Naked Ape's Triadic Threshold (John Harvey)
> > > 3. Resistance is Futile, The Machine is Us/ing Us (John
> > > Harvey)
> > >
> > >
> > ----------------------------------------------------------
> > > --------- ---
> > >
> > > Message: 1
> > > Date: Sat, 05 May 2007 18:42:48 -0600
> > > From:
> > > Subject: Re: [percy-l] The Naked Ape's Triadic Threshold
> > > To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion"
> > >
> > > Message-ID:
> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > John Harvey asks:
> > >
> > > > How does Percy explicitly suggest that symbol use is
> > > > related to  "the
> > > > triadic threshold?" Or, are there secondary sources
> > > > for this  connection? In either case, I would
> > > appreciate knowing where I  can
> > > > get more information on these ideas.
> > > >
> > >
> > > I'm going on memory here-- I'm pretty sure "A Semiotic
> > > Primer of the Self" speaks to this connection.
> > >
> > > The origin of symbol use is identical to the crossing of
> > > the triadic threshold. At some point our brain evolved
> > > the ability to  synthesize the
> > > triadic relation between signifier and signified,
> > > linguistic signs and their referents. At that point we
> > > evolved a new mode of being.
> > > I tried dealing with this subject in "Walker Percy and
> > > the Mind/Body Problem' June 1999 International
> > > Philosophical Quarterly. [shameless self-promotion]
> > > Pretty naive writing on subjects I didn't really
> > > understand.
> > > I know Percy deals with the subject in essays in The
> > > Message in the Bottle also.
> > >
> > > This triadic threshold question is THE question. I have
> > > to think that understanding where we come from will help
> > > us know where we are going.
> > > Spc Robert Eckert
> > > 172 Chemical Corp
> > > Ft. Riley, Kansas 66442
> > >
> > >
> > > ------------------------------
> > >
> > > Message: 2
> > > Date: Sun, 06 May 2007 07:10:17 -0500
> > > From: John Harvey
> > > Subject: Re: [percy-l] The Naked Ape's Triadic Threshold
> > > To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion"
> > >
> > > Message-ID:
> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> > >
> > > Robert Eckert, List
> > >
> > > At 06:42 PM 5/5/2007 -0600, Spc Robert Eckert wrote:
> > >
> > > >I'm going on memory here-- I'm pretty sure "A Semiotic
> > > Primer of  the
> > > >Self" speaks to this connection [between symbol use and
> > > triadic threshold].
> > >
> > > A quick Google search revealed that this essay is
> > > included in Lost  in
> > > the Cosmos which I just ordered so I could participate
> > > in the  seminar/discussion at www.korrekiv.org.
> > >
> > > > The origin of symbol use is identical to the crossing
> > > > of the  triadic threshold. At some point our brain
> > > evolved the ability  to
> > > > synthesize the triadic relation between signifier and
> > > > signified,  linguistic signs and their referents. At
> > > > that point we evolved a  new mode of being.
> > > >
> > > >I tried dealing with this subject in "Walker Percy and
> > > the  Mind/Body
> > > >Problem' June 1999 International Philosophical
> > > Quarterly.  >[shameless self-promotion] Pretty naive
> > > writing on subjects I  didn't
> > > >really understand.
> > > >
> > > >I know Percy deals with the subject in essays in The
> > > Message in  the
> > > >Bottle also.
> > > >
> > > >This triadic threshold question is THE question. I have
> > > to think  >that understanding where we come from will
> > > help us know where we are going.
> > >
> > > Although I agree with your sentiments, I would put
> > > greater  emphasis
> > > on our future. I believe that THE question is learning
> > > how to  build
> > > secure bridges across Percy's Fateful Rift. Of course,
> > > understanding
> > > the triadic threshold is necessary for interpreting this
> > > rift  properly and building secure bridges on a firm
> > > foundation. That is  the reason I am trying to get a
> > > handle on your comments.
> > > Thanks for your suggestions. I am just beginning to
> > > retrain my  dyadic
> > > eyes to see the triadic forest through what appear to be
> > > dyadic trees.
> > > Respectfully,
> > >
> > > John
> > > -------------- next part --------------
> > > An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> > > URL:
> > > https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/percy-
> > > l/attachments/20070506/3502d283/attachment-0001.htm
> > >
> > > ------------------------------
> > >
> > > Message: 3
> > > Date: Sun, 06 May 2007 08:39:17 -0500
> > > From: John Harvey
> > > Subject: [percy-l] Resistance is Futile, The Machine is
> > > Us/ing Us To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical
> > > Discussion"
> > > Message-ID:
> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> > >
> > > List,
> > >
> > > As I've said many times, "I'm a perennial optimist in
> > > the face of  overwhelming evidence to the contrary."
> > >
> > > However, I also believe that we optimists need to
> > > attract as much  attention to evidence of the problem as
> > > we can muster to convince  those in doubt. Hopefully,
> > > when the evidence is more widely  understood, it will
> > > convince a few more that we need to build  secure
> > > bridges across the Peircean triadic/dyadic divide which
> > > Percy  called
> > > A Fateful Rift.
> > >
> > > At the risk of preaching to the choir, I am directing
> > > your  attention
> > > to this posting Resistance is Futile
> > > I
> > > believe it is a sign that concern is alive and growing.
> > >
> > > BTW www.korrektiv.org is the blog that is currently
> > > hosting the  seminar/discussion about Percy's Lost in
> > > the Cosmos: The Last Self- HelpBook.
> > >
> > > I am also recommending these signposts to some of my
> > > unknowing or  doubting friends who need to be nudged.
> > >
> > > Respectfully,
> > >
> > > John
> > > -------------- next part --------------
> > > An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> > > URL:
> > > https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/percy-
> > > l/attachments/20070506/547dfae8/attachment-0001.htm
> > >
> > > ------------------------------
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Percy-L mailing list
> > > Percy-L AT lists.ibiblio.org
> > > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l
> > >
> > >
> > > End of Percy-L Digest, Vol 48, Issue 4
> > > **************************************
> > > --
> > > An archive of all list discussion is available at
> > > https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/percy-l/
> > >
> > > Visit the Walker Percy Project at
> > > http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy
> > --
> > An archive of all list discussion is available at
> > https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/percy-l/
> >
> > Visit the Walker Percy Project at
> > http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Percy-L mailing list
> > Percy-L AT lists.ibiblio.org
> > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l
> >
> >
> > End of Percy-L Digest, Vol 48, Issue 7
> > **************************************
> --
> An archive of all list discussion is available at 
> https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/percy-l/
>
> Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy

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