Percy-L: Literary, Religious, Scientific, and Philosophical Discussion of Walker Percy

["Marcus" <marcus AT loyno.edu>]

Michael Larson states:

"Which is all to say that language is not likely to be some
evolutionary
breakthrough but rather a design feature in a unique
creature, a
creature whose nature must accommodate two realms: those of
both matter
and spirit."

Doesn't this really excellent discussion lead us to revise
slightly:

"Which is all to say that language is not likely to be some
evolutionary
breakthrough but rather a design feature in a unique
creature, a
creature whose nature must accommodate two realms: those of
both matter
and SPEAKING."

Marcus Smith
New Orleans 



----- Original Message Follows -----
From: percy-l-request AT lists.ibiblio.org
To: percy-l AT lists.ibiblio.org
Subject: Percy-L Digest, Vol 48, Issue 7
Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 21:45:42 -0400

> Send Percy-L mailing list submissions to
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> 
> 
> Today's Topics:
> 
>    1. Re: Language is a clue (Tammy.DiBenedetto AT rcc.edu)
>    2. Re: Language is a clue (robert.g.eckert AT us.army.mil)
>    3. Re: Language is a clue (Tommy Armstrong)
> 
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> ------------
> 
> Message: 1
> Date: Tue, 8 May 2007 11:00:02 -0700
> From: <Tammy.DiBenedetto AT rcc.edu>
> Subject: Re: [percy-l] Language is a clue
> To: <percy-l AT lists.ibiblio.org>,
> <percy-l AT lists.ibiblio.org> Message-ID:
> <356EF64B3DA9A640BE06A772C985DE300124E3 AT MSGSRV2.rccd.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain;    charset="iso-8859-1"
> 
> Thank you, Michael, for that pithy clarification of what I
> consider to be Percy's most significant contribution to
> the existentialist--or perhaps more precisely, the
> human--dilemma.  
> 
>  
> 
> I'm currently working on my dissertation, a study of the
> construct of race in Percy's novels. The dissertation
> calls upon African American studies as well as
> post-colonial studies in order to discern and/or to
> illustrate how our peculiar notions of American
> "whiteness" tie directly to what Toni Morrison refers to
> as an "Africanist presence."  (It's the only way I could
> get away with devoting the entire dissertation to Percy,
> but it really does make for a fascinating study.)  All of
> this to explain why I've been lurking rather than engaging
> in the conversations for the few months in which I've been
> aware of this list.  I'd love to participate more, but,
> well, I'm writing a dissertation...
> 
>  
> 
> I did have to take the opportunity, though, to thank
> Michael for his insightful and evocative explanation of
> this cornerstone of Percian thought.  
> 
>  
> All the best,
>  
> Tammy DiBenedetto
>  
> Tammy DiBenedetto
> Associate Professor, English
> Riverside City College
> 4800 Magnolia Avenue
> Riverside, CA  92506
> 951.222.8271
>  
>  
> Pe <mailto:Percy-l-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org>
> rcy-l-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org on behalf of Michael
> Larson Sent: Tue 5/8/2007 7:46 AM
> To: percy-l AT lists.ibiblio.org
> Subject: [percy-l] Language is a clue
> 
> 
> 
> Dear John, Robert, and others,
> 
> This is from "The Mystery of Language," THE MESSAGE IN THE
> BOTTLE (p. 158):
> 
> "An awareness of the nature of language must have the
> greatest possible consequences for our minimal concept of
> man. For one thing it must reveal the ordinary secular
> concept of man held in the West as not merely inadequate
> but quite simply mistaken. I do not refer to the Christian
> idea of man as a composite of body and soul, a belief
> which is professed by some and given lip service by many
> but which can hardly be said to be a working assumption of
> secular learning. We see man--when I say we, I mean 95 per
> cent of those who attended American high schools and
> universities--as the highest of the organisms: He stands
> erect, he apposes thumb and forefinger, his language is
> far more complex than that of the most advanced Cebus
> azarae. But the difference is quantitative, not
> qualitative. Man is a higher organism, standing in direct
> continuity with rocks, soil, fungi, protozoa, and mammals.
> 
> This happens not to be true, however, and in a way it is
> unfortunate. I say unfortunate because it means the
> shattering of the old dream of the Enlightenment--that an
> objective-explanatory-causal science can discover and set
> forth all the knowledge of which man is capable. The dream
> is drawing to a close. The existentialists have taught us
> that what man is cannot be grasped by the sciences of man.
> The case is rather that man's science is one of the things
> that man does, a mode of existence. Another mode is
> speech. Man is not merely a higher organism responding to
> and controlling his environment. He is, in Heidegger's
> words, that being in the world whose calling it is to find
> a name for Being, to give testimony to it, and to provide
> for it a clearing."
> 
> 
> So Percy argues here, as he does in many places, that the
> human capacity for language is what separates us from the
> animals. The Christian philosophers, to whose work he
> makes implicit reference here, would say that the animals
> are of an entirely material (thus, dyadic) order and that
> God and the angels are of an entirely spiritual
> (non-material) order. But man is a middle creature, both
> material and spiritual (the highest of the former and the
> lowest of the latter), and the triadic nature of language
> is both a material clue for this reality and the means by
> which this composite creature (man) has access to that
> which is higher. Language itself is always
> material--whether written or spoken--but it allows by way
> of signification for consciousness and contemplation,
> which is of the spiritual order. And by a mere sleight of
> words, Percy gets an existentialist, Heidegger, to
> describe in grand terms, what Aquinas had fulfilled
> centuries earlier, in the high Middle Ages, long before
> "the old dream of the Enlightenment" was even born.
> 
> Which is all to say that language is not likely to be some
> evolutionary breakthrough but rather a design feature in a
> unique creature, a creature whose nature must accommodate
> two realms: those of both matter and spirit. Language, for
> Percy, was a clue and ultimately a proof for the spiritual
> order; and because it is rooted in the material world, I
> think he thought he had something that even the
> rationalist-naturalist intelligentsia would have to
> acknowledge.
> 
> Best regards,
> Michael Larson
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: percy-l-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org
> [mailto:percy-l-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of
> percy-l-request AT lists.ibiblio.org
> Sent: Sunday, May 06, 2007 11:00 AM
> To: percy-l AT lists.ibiblio.org
> Subject: Percy-L Digest, Vol 48, Issue 4
> 
> Send Percy-L mailing list submissions to
>         percy-l AT lists.ibiblio.org
> 
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>         http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help'
> to
>         percy-l-request AT lists.ibiblio.org
> 
> You can reach the person managing the list at
>         percy-l-owner AT lists.ibiblio.org
> 
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more
> specific than "Re: Contents of Percy-L digest..."
> 
> 
> Today's Topics:
> 
>    1. Re: The Naked Ape's Triadic Threshold
>       (robert.g.eckert AT us.army.mil)
>    2. Re: The Naked Ape's Triadic Threshold (John Harvey)
>    3. Resistance is Futile, The Machine is Us/ing Us (John
> Harvey)
> 
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> ------------
> 
> Message: 1
> Date: Sat, 05 May 2007 18:42:48 -0600
> From: <robert.g.eckert AT us.army.mil>
> Subject: Re: [percy-l] The Naked Ape's Triadic Threshold
> To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion"
>         <percy-l AT lists.ibiblio.org>
> Message-ID: <e4bebacbbc66.463cd028 AT us.army.mil>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> John Harvey asks:
> 
> > How does Percy explicitly suggest that symbol use is
> > related to "the
> > triadic threshold?" Or, are there secondary sources for
> > this connection? In either case, I would appreciate
> > knowing where I can get more information on these ideas.
> >
> 
> I'm going on memory here-- I'm pretty sure "A Semiotic
> Primer of the Self" speaks to this connection.
> 
> The origin of symbol use is identical to the crossing of
> the triadic threshold. At some point our brain evolved the
> ability to synthesize the triadic relation between
> signifier and signified, linguistic signs and their
> referents. At that point we evolved a new mode of being.
> 
> I tried dealing with this subject in "Walker Percy and the
> Mind/Body Problem'  June 1999 International Philosophical
> Quarterly. [shameless self-promotion] Pretty naive writing
> on subjects I didn't really understand.
> 
> I know Percy deals with the subject in essays in The
> Message in the Bottle also.
> 
> This triadic threshold question is THE question. I have to
> think that understanding where we come from will help us
> know where we are going.
> 
> Spc Robert Eckert
> 172 Chemical Corp
> Ft. Riley, Kansas 66442
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 2
> Date: Sun, 06 May 2007 07:10:17 -0500
> From: John Harvey <johnharvey AT earthlink.net>
> Subject: Re: [percy-l] The Naked Ape's Triadic Threshold
> To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion"
>         <percy-l AT lists.ibiblio.org>
> Message-ID:
> <E1HkfZC-0004Uu-00 AT pop-savannah.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> 
> Robert Eckert, List
> 
> At 06:42 PM 5/5/2007 -0600, Spc Robert Eckert wrote:
> 
> >I'm going on memory here-- I'm pretty sure "A Semiotic
> Primer of the >Self" speaks to this connection [between
> symbol use and triadic threshold].
> 
> A quick Google search revealed that this essay is included
> in Lost in the Cosmos which I just ordered so I could
> participate in the seminar/discussion at www.korrekiv.org.
> 
> >  The origin of symbol use is identical to the crossing
> > of the triadic threshold. At some point our brain
> > evolved the ability to synthesize the triadic relation
> > between signifier and signified, linguistic signs and
> > their referents. At that point we evolved a new mode of
> being. >
> >I tried dealing with this subject in "Walker Percy and
> the Mind/Body >Problem'  June 1999 International
> Philosophical Quarterly. >[shameless self-promotion]
> Pretty naive writing on subjects I didn't >really
> understand. >
> >I know Percy deals with the subject in essays in The
> Message in the >Bottle also.
> >
> >This triadic threshold question is THE question. I have
> to think >that understanding where we come from will help
> us know where we are going.
> 
> Although I agree with your sentiments, I would put greater
> emphasis on our future. I believe that THE question is
> learning how to build secure bridges across Percy's
> Fateful Rift. Of course, understanding the triadic
> threshold is necessary for interpreting this rift properly
> and building secure bridges on a firm foundation. That is
> the reason I am trying to get a handle on your comments.
> 
> Thanks for your suggestions. I am just beginning to
> retrain my dyadic eyes to see the triadic forest through
> what appear to be dyadic trees.
> 
> Respectfully,
> 
> John
> -------------- next part --------------
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> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 3
> Date: Sun, 06 May 2007 08:39:17 -0500
> From: John Harvey <johnharvey AT earthlink.net>
> Subject: [percy-l] Resistance is Futile, The Machine is
> Us/ing Us To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical
> Discussion"
>         <percy-l AT lists.ibiblio.org>
> Message-ID:
> <E1HkgxI-0005Fv-00 AT pop-satin.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> 
> List,
> 
> As I've said many times, "I'm a perennial optimist in the
> face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary."
> 
> However, I also believe that we optimists need to attract
> as much attention to evidence of the problem as we can
> muster to convince those in doubt. Hopefully, when the
> evidence is more widely understood, it will convince a few
> more that we need to build secure bridges across the
> Peircean triadic/dyadic divide which Percy called A
> Fateful Rift.
> 
> At the risk of preaching to the choir, I am directing your
> attention to this posting Resistance is Futile
> <http://www.korrektiv.org/2007/05/resistance-is-futile.htm
> l> I believe it is a sign that concern is alive and
> growing.
> 
> BTW www.korrektiv.org is the blog that is currently
> hosting the seminar/discussion about Percy's Lost in the
> Cosmos: The Last Self-Help Book.
> 
> I am also recommending these signposts to some of my
> unknowing or doubting friends who need to be nudged.
> 
> Respectfully,
> 
> John 
> -------------- next part --------------
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> ------------------------------
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Percy-L mailing list
> Percy-L AT lists.ibiblio.org
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l
> 
> 
> End of Percy-L Digest, Vol 48, Issue 4
> **************************************
> --
> An archive of all list discussion is available at
> https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/percy-l/
> 
> Visit the Walker Percy Project at
> http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 2
> Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 19:14:36 -0500
> From: <robert.g.eckert AT us.army.mil>
> Subject: Re: [percy-l] Language is a clue
> To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion"
>     <percy-l AT lists.ibiblio.org>
> Message-ID: <e322faa6bfb6.4640cc1c AT us.army.mil>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
> 
> The conflict between language being an "evolutionary
> breakthrough" or a "design feature" is a false one. 
> 
> Language is a feature that was created as all other
> features were created. 
> 
> The process of creation is the process of natural
> selection. 
> 
> Evolutionary chance is the process by which we were
> created by the Creator.
> 
> Chance is God unrecognized.
> 
> Spc Robert Eckert
> 172 Chemical Corp
> Ft. Riley, KS  66442
> 
> "Faith requires us to be materialists without flinching"
>     - Peirce
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Michael Larson 
> Date: Tuesday, May 8, 2007 9:46
> Subject: [percy-l] Language is a clue
> To: percy-l AT lists.ibiblio.org
> 
> > Dear John, Robert, and others,
> > 
> > This is from "The Mystery of Language," THE MESSAGE IN
> > THE BOTTLE (p. 158):
> > 
> > "An awareness of the nature of language must have the
> > greatest  possibleconsequences for our minimal concept
> > of man. For one thing  it must
> > reveal the ordinary secular concept of man held in the
> > West as not merely inadequate but quite simply mistaken.
> > I do not refer to the Christian idea of man as a
> > composite of body and soul, a belief  which is
> > professed by some and given lip service by many but
> > which can  hardly be
> > said to be a working assumption of secular learning. We
> > see man-- when I
> > say we, I mean 95 per cent of those who attended
> > American high schools and universities--as the highest
> > of the organisms: He stands  erect, he
> > apposes thumb and forefinger, his language is far more
> > complex  than that
> > of the most advanced Cebus azarae. But the difference is
> > quantitative, not qualitative. Man is a higher organism,
> > standing in direct  continuitywith rocks, soil, fungi,
> > protozoa, and mammals. 
> > This happens not to be true, however, and in a way it is
> > unfortunate. I
> > say unfortunate because it means the shattering of the
> > old dream  of the
> > Enlightenment--that an objective-explanatory-causal
> > science can  discoverand set forth all the knowledge of
> > which man is capable.  The dream is
> > drawing to a close. The existentialists have taught us
> > that what  man is
> > cannot be grasped by the sciences of man. The case is
> > rather that  man'sscience is one of the things that man
> > does, a mode of  existence. Another
> > mode is speech. Man is not merely a higher organism
> > responding to and controlling his environment. He is, in
> > Heidegger's words, that  being in
> > the world whose calling it is to find a name for Being,
> > to give testimony to it, and to provide for it a
> > clearing." 
> > 
> > So Percy argues here, as he does in many places, that
> > the human  capacityfor language is what separates us
> > from the animals. The  Christianphilosophers, to whose
> > work he makes implicit reference  here, would say
> > that the animals are of an entirely material (thus,
> > dyadic) order and that God and the angels are of an
> > entirely spiritual (non-material) order. But man is a
> > middle creature, both material and spiritual (the
> highest of the former and the lowest of the latter), and
> > the triadic nature of language is both a material clue
> > for this reality and the means by which this composite
> > creature (man) has access to that  which is
> > higher. Language itself is always material--whether
> > written or spoken--but it allows by way of signification
> > for consciousness and contemplation, which is of the
> > spiritual order. And by a mere  sleight of
> > words, Percy gets an existentialist, Heidegger, to
> > describe in grand terms, what Aquinas had fulfilled
> > centuries earlier, in the high  MiddleAges, long before
> > "the old dream of the Enlightenment" was  even born.
> > 
> > Which is all to say that language is not likely to be
> > some  evolutionarybreakthrough but rather a design
> > feature in a unique  creature, a
> > creature whose nature must accommodate two realms: those
> > of both  matterand spirit. Language, for Percy, was a
> > clue and ultimately a  proof for
> > the spiritual order; and because it is rooted in the
> > material  world, I
> > think he thought he had something that even the
> > rationalist-naturalist intelligentsia would have to
> > acknowledge. 
> > Best regards,
> > Michael Larson
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: percy-l-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org
> > [mailto:percy-l-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of
> > percy-l-request AT lists.ibiblio.org
> > Sent: Sunday, May 06, 2007 11:00 AM
> > To: percy-l AT lists.ibiblio.org
> > Subject: Percy-L Digest, Vol 48, Issue 4
> > 
> > Send Percy-L mailing list submissions to
> > percy-l AT lists.ibiblio.org
> > 
> > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web,
> > visit http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l
> > or, via email, send a message with subject or body
> > 'help' to percy-l-request AT lists.ibiblio.org
> > 
> > You can reach the person managing the list at
> > percy-l-owner AT lists.ibiblio.org
> > 
> > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is
> > more specific than "Re: Contents of Percy-L digest..."
> > 
> > 
> > Today's Topics:
> > 
> > 1. Re: The Naked Ape's Triadic Threshold
> > (robert.g.eckert AT us.army.mil)
> > 2. Re: The Naked Ape's Triadic Threshold (John Harvey)
> > 3. Resistance is Futile, The Machine is Us/ing Us (John
> > Harvey) 
> > 
> >
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> > --------- ---
> > 
> > Message: 1
> > Date: Sat, 05 May 2007 18:42:48 -0600
> > From: 
> > Subject: Re: [percy-l] The Naked Ape's Triadic Threshold
> > To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion"
> > 
> > Message-ID: 
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > John Harvey asks:
> > 
> > > How does Percy explicitly suggest that symbol use is
> > > related to  "the 
> > > triadic threshold?" Or, are there secondary sources
> > > for this  connection? In either case, I would
> > appreciate knowing where I  can 
> > > get more information on these ideas.
> > > 
> > 
> > I'm going on memory here-- I'm pretty sure "A Semiotic
> > Primer of the Self" speaks to this connection. 
> > 
> > The origin of symbol use is identical to the crossing of
> > the triadic threshold. At some point our brain evolved
> > the ability to  synthesize the
> > triadic relation between signifier and signified,
> > linguistic signs and their referents. At that point we
> > evolved a new mode of being. 
> > I tried dealing with this subject in "Walker Percy and
> > the Mind/Body Problem' June 1999 International
> > Philosophical Quarterly. [shameless self-promotion]
> > Pretty naive writing on subjects I didn't really
> > understand. 
> > I know Percy deals with the subject in essays in The
> > Message in the Bottle also.
> > 
> > This triadic threshold question is THE question. I have
> > to think that understanding where we come from will help
> > us know where we are going. 
> > Spc Robert Eckert
> > 172 Chemical Corp
> > Ft. Riley, Kansas 66442 
> > 
> > 
> > ------------------------------
> > 
> > Message: 2
> > Date: Sun, 06 May 2007 07:10:17 -0500
> > From: John Harvey 
> > Subject: Re: [percy-l] The Naked Ape's Triadic Threshold
> > To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion"
> > 
> > Message-ID: 
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> > 
> > Robert Eckert, List
> > 
> > At 06:42 PM 5/5/2007 -0600, Spc Robert Eckert wrote:
> > 
> > >I'm going on memory here-- I'm pretty sure "A Semiotic
> > Primer of  the 
> > >Self" speaks to this connection [between symbol use and
> > triadic threshold].
> > 
> > A quick Google search revealed that this essay is
> > included in Lost  in 
> > the Cosmos which I just ordered so I could participate
> > in the  seminar/discussion at www.korrekiv.org.
> > 
> > > The origin of symbol use is identical to the crossing
> > > of the  triadic threshold. At some point our brain
> > evolved the ability  to 
> > > synthesize the triadic relation between signifier and
> > > signified,  linguistic signs and their referents. At
> > > that point we evolved a  new mode of being.
> > >
> > >I tried dealing with this subject in "Walker Percy and
> > the  Mind/Body 
> > >Problem' June 1999 International Philosophical
> > Quarterly.  >[shameless self-promotion] Pretty naive
> > writing on subjects I  didn't 
> > >really understand.
> > >
> > >I know Percy deals with the subject in essays in The
> > Message in  the 
> > >Bottle also.
> > >
> > >This triadic threshold question is THE question. I have
> > to think  >that understanding where we come from will
> > help us know where we are going.
> > 
> > Although I agree with your sentiments, I would put
> > greater  emphasis 
> > on our future. I believe that THE question is learning
> > how to  build 
> > secure bridges across Percy's Fateful Rift. Of course, 
> > understanding 
> > the triadic threshold is necessary for interpreting this
> > rift  properly and building secure bridges on a firm
> > foundation. That is  the reason I am trying to get a
> > handle on your comments. 
> > Thanks for your suggestions. I am just beginning to
> > retrain my  dyadic 
> > eyes to see the triadic forest through what appear to be
> > dyadic trees. 
> > Respectfully,
> > 
> > John 
> > -------------- next part --------------
> > An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> > URL:
> > https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/percy-
> > l/attachments/20070506/3502d283/attachment-0001.htm 
> > 
> > ------------------------------
> > 
> > Message: 3
> > Date: Sun, 06 May 2007 08:39:17 -0500
> > From: John Harvey 
> > Subject: [percy-l] Resistance is Futile, The Machine is
> > Us/ing Us To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical
> > Discussion" 
> > Message-ID: 
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> > 
> > List,
> > 
> > As I've said many times, "I'm a perennial optimist in
> > the face of  overwhelming evidence to the contrary."
> > 
> > However, I also believe that we optimists need to
> > attract as much  attention to evidence of the problem as
> > we can muster to convince  those in doubt. Hopefully,
> > when the evidence is more widely  understood, it will
> > convince a few more that we need to build  secure 
> > bridges across the Peircean triadic/dyadic divide which
> > Percy  called 
> > A Fateful Rift.
> > 
> > At the risk of preaching to the choir, I am directing
> > your  attention 
> > to this posting Resistance is Futile 
> > I 
> > believe it is a sign that concern is alive and growing.
> > 
> > BTW www.korrektiv.org is the blog that is currently
> > hosting the  seminar/discussion about Percy's Lost in
> > the Cosmos: The Last Self- HelpBook.
> > 
> > I am also recommending these signposts to some of my
> > unknowing or  doubting friends who need to be nudged.
> > 
> > Respectfully,
> > 
> > John 
> > -------------- next part --------------
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> > 
> > ------------------------------
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > Percy-L mailing list
> > Percy-L AT lists.ibiblio.org
> > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l
> > 
> > 
> > End of Percy-L Digest, Vol 48, Issue 4
> > **************************************
> > --
> > An archive of all list discussion is available at 
> > https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/percy-l/
> > 
> > Visit the Walker Percy Project at
> > http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 3
> Date: Tue, 8 May 2007 21:45:08 -0400
> From: "Tommy Armstrong" <tfa AT brickengraver.com>
> Subject: Re: [percy-l] Language is a clue
> To: "'Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion'"
>     <percy-l AT lists.ibiblio.org>
> Message-ID: <00f401c791db$ad39cc20$07ad6460$@com>
> Content-Type: text/plain;    charset="us-ascii"
> 
> I am not it agreement with the statement:
> "The process of creation is the process of natural
> selection"
> 
> An act of creation happens every time a mutation (or
> divine intervention for that matter) occurs. Billions of
> acts of creation in the natural world have occurred in the
> past--most simply did not continue. Natural selection just
> determines whether that act of creation is allowed to
> continue. The origin of man-which to me, and I think to
> Percy, came at  that instant in time where he became
> triadic in nature.  At that point natural selection ceases
> to exist in the pre-human sense--the "natural world". Man
> becomes a cultural being- one that is qualitatively
> different than any other inhabitant of nature and breaks
> out of the linearity of natural selection. For he then
> becomes able to exist outside of the natural world, for he
> has the ability to create his own world or worlds. He has
> what one of my professors termed as a "My owness". Unlike
> dyadic creatures we not only create our own worlds but our
> own space and that space is not a space of an xyz
> coordinate system. But that is another discussion.
> 
> To say that the creation of the concept of "natural
> selection" itself was created by "evolutionary chance" is
> I think wrong. The act of creation by a man is not the
> process of natural selection. And the fact that man has
> the ability, in fact the imperative, to create his own
> worlds is because of his acquisition of triadic
> "behavior". It may very well be that " Evolutionary chance
> is the process by which we were created by the Creator" ,
> but how does one really know? In fact, how can one know?
> And more to the point, what difference does it made if the
> Creator used chance or directed action to create us-for if
> one believes in a Creator--he also invented the concept of
> chance. If He did not, we did. 
> 
> 
> Tommy Armstrong
> PO Box 484 
> Lillington, NC   27546
> http://www.brickengraver.com
>  
> ..with the method of science one beholds what is generally
> true about individuals, but art beholds what is uniquely
> true.
>  
> Walker Percy
> Signposts in a Strange Land
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: percy-l-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org
> [mailto:percy-l-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of
> robert.g.eckert AT us.army.mil
> Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2007 8:15 PM
> To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion
> Subject: Re: [percy-l] Language is a clue
> 
> The conflict between language being an "evolutionary
> breakthrough" or a "design feature" is a false one. 
> 
> Language is a feature that was created as all other
> features were created. 
> 
> The process of creation is the process of natural
> selection. 
> 
> Evolutionary chance is the process by which we were
> created by the Creator.
> 
> Chance is God unrecognized.
> 
> Spc Robert Eckert
> 172 Chemical Corp
> Ft. Riley, KS  66442
> 
> "Faith requires us to be materialists without flinching"
>     - Peirce
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Michael Larson 
> Date: Tuesday, May 8, 2007 9:46
> Subject: [percy-l] Language is a clue
> To: percy-l AT lists.ibiblio.org
> 
> > Dear John, Robert, and others,
> > 
> > This is from "The Mystery of Language," THE MESSAGE IN
> > THE BOTTLE (p. 158):
> > 
> > "An awareness of the nature of language must have the
> > greatest  possibleconsequences for our minimal concept
> > of man. For one thing  it must
> > reveal the ordinary secular concept of man held in the
> > West as not merely inadequate but quite simply mistaken.
> > I do not refer to the Christian idea of man as a
> > composite of body and soul, a belief  which is
> > professed by some and given lip service by many but
> > which can  hardly be
> > said to be a working assumption of secular learning. We
> > see man-- when I
> > say we, I mean 95 per cent of those who attended
> > American high schools and universities--as the highest
> > of the organisms: He stands  erect, he
> > apposes thumb and forefinger, his language is far more
> > complex  than that
> > of the most advanced Cebus azarae. But the difference is
> > quantitative, not qualitative. Man is a higher organism,
> > standing in direct  continuitywith rocks, soil, fungi,
> > protozoa, and mammals. 
> > This happens not to be true, however, and in a way it is
> > unfortunate. I
> > say unfortunate because it means the shattering of the
> > old dream  of the
> > Enlightenment--that an objective-explanatory-causal
> > science can  discoverand set forth all the knowledge of
> > which man is capable.  The dream is
> > drawing to a close. The existentialists have taught us
> > that what  man is
> > cannot be grasped by the sciences of man. The case is
> > rather that  man'sscience is one of the things that man
> > does, a mode of  existence. Another
> > mode is speech. Man is not merely a higher organism
> > responding to and controlling his environment. He is, in
> > Heidegger's words, that  being in
> > the world whose calling it is to find a name for Being,
> > to give testimony to it, and to provide for it a
> > clearing." 
> > 
> > So Percy argues here, as he does in many places, that
> > the human  capacityfor language is what separates us
> > from the animals. The  Christianphilosophers, to whose
> > work he makes implicit reference  here, would say
> > that the animals are of an entirely material (thus,
> > dyadic) order and that God and the angels are of an
> > entirely spiritual (non-material) order. But man is a
> > middle creature, both material and spiritual (the
> highest of the former and the lowest of the latter), and
> > the triadic nature of language is both a material clue
> > for this reality and the means by which this composite
> > creature (man) has access to that  which is
> > higher. Language itself is always material--whether
> > written or spoken--but it allows by way of signification
> > for consciousness and contemplation, which is of the
> > spiritual order. And by a mere  sleight of
> > words, Percy gets an existentialist, Heidegger, to
> > describe in grand terms, what Aquinas had fulfilled
> > centuries earlier, in the high  MiddleAges, long before
> > "the old dream of the Enlightenment" was  even born.
> > 
> > Which is all to say that language is not likely to be
> > some  evolutionarybreakthrough but rather a design
> > feature in a unique  creature, a
> > creature whose nature must accommodate two realms: those
> > of both  matterand spirit. Language, for Percy, was a
> > clue and ultimately a  proof for
> > the spiritual order; and because it is rooted in the
> > material  world, I
> > think he thought he had something that even the
> > rationalist-naturalist intelligentsia would have to
> > acknowledge. 
> > Best regards,
> > Michael Larson
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: percy-l-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org
> > [mailto:percy-l-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of
> > percy-l-request AT lists.ibiblio.org
> > Sent: Sunday, May 06, 2007 11:00 AM
> > To: percy-l AT lists.ibiblio.org
> > Subject: Percy-L Digest, Vol 48, Issue 4
> > 
> > Send Percy-L mailing list submissions to
> > percy-l AT lists.ibiblio.org
> > 
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> > 
> > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is
> > more specific than "Re: Contents of Percy-L digest..."
> > 
> > 
> > Today's Topics:
> > 
> > 1. Re: The Naked Ape's Triadic Threshold
> > (robert.g.eckert AT us.army.mil)
> > 2. Re: The Naked Ape's Triadic Threshold (John Harvey)
> > 3. Resistance is Futile, The Machine is Us/ing Us (John
> > Harvey) 
> > 
> >
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> > --------- ---
> > 
> > Message: 1
> > Date: Sat, 05 May 2007 18:42:48 -0600
> > From: 
> > Subject: Re: [percy-l] The Naked Ape's Triadic Threshold
> > To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion"
> > 
> > Message-ID: 
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > John Harvey asks:
> > 
> > > How does Percy explicitly suggest that symbol use is
> > > related to  "the 
> > > triadic threshold?" Or, are there secondary sources
> > > for this  connection? In either case, I would
> > appreciate knowing where I  can 
> > > get more information on these ideas.
> > > 
> > 
> > I'm going on memory here-- I'm pretty sure "A Semiotic
> > Primer of the Self" speaks to this connection. 
> > 
> > The origin of symbol use is identical to the crossing of
> > the triadic threshold. At some point our brain evolved
> > the ability to  synthesize the
> > triadic relation between signifier and signified,
> > linguistic signs and their referents. At that point we
> > evolved a new mode of being. 
> > I tried dealing with this subject in "Walker Percy and
> > the Mind/Body Problem' June 1999 International
> > Philosophical Quarterly. [shameless self-promotion]
> > Pretty naive writing on subjects I didn't really
> > understand. 
> > I know Percy deals with the subject in essays in The
> > Message in the Bottle also.
> > 
> > This triadic threshold question is THE question. I have
> > to think that understanding where we come from will help
> > us know where we are going. 
> > Spc Robert Eckert
> > 172 Chemical Corp
> > Ft. Riley, Kansas 66442 
> > 
> > 
> > ------------------------------
> > 
> > Message: 2
> > Date: Sun, 06 May 2007 07:10:17 -0500
> > From: John Harvey 
> > Subject: Re: [percy-l] The Naked Ape's Triadic Threshold
> > To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion"
> > 
> > Message-ID: 
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> > 
> > Robert Eckert, List
> > 
> > At 06:42 PM 5/5/2007 -0600, Spc Robert Eckert wrote:
> > 
> > >I'm going on memory here-- I'm pretty sure "A Semiotic
> > Primer of  the 
> > >Self" speaks to this connection [between symbol use and
> > triadic threshold].
> > 
> > A quick Google search revealed that this essay is
> > included in Lost  in 
> > the Cosmos which I just ordered so I could participate
> > in the  seminar/discussion at www.korrekiv.org.
> > 
> > > The origin of symbol use is identical to the crossing
> > > of the  triadic threshold. At some point our brain
> > evolved the ability  to 
> > > synthesize the triadic relation between signifier and
> > > signified,  linguistic signs and their referents. At
> > > that point we evolved a  new mode of being.
> > >
> > >I tried dealing with this subject in "Walker Percy and
> > the  Mind/Body 
> > >Problem' June 1999 International Philosophical
> > Quarterly.  >[shameless self-promotion] Pretty naive
> > writing on subjects I  didn't 
> > >really understand.
> > >
> > >I know Percy deals with the subject in essays in The
> > Message in  the 
> > >Bottle also.
> > >
> > >This triadic threshold question is THE question. I have
> > to think  >that understanding where we come from will
> > help us know where we are going.
> > 
> > Although I agree with your sentiments, I would put
> > greater  emphasis 
> > on our future. I believe that THE question is learning
> > how to  build 
> > secure bridges across Percy's Fateful Rift. Of course, 
> > understanding 
> > the triadic threshold is necessary for interpreting this
> > rift  properly and building secure bridges on a firm
> > foundation. That is  the reason I am trying to get a
> > handle on your comments. 
> > Thanks for your suggestions. I am just beginning to
> > retrain my  dyadic 
> > eyes to see the triadic forest through what appear to be
> > dyadic trees. 
> > Respectfully,
> > 
> > John 
> > -------------- next part --------------
> > An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
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> > https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/percy-
> > l/attachments/20070506/3502d283/attachment-0001.htm 
> > 
> > ------------------------------
> > 
> > Message: 3
> > Date: Sun, 06 May 2007 08:39:17 -0500
> > From: John Harvey 
> > Subject: [percy-l] Resistance is Futile, The Machine is
> > Us/ing Us To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical
> > Discussion" 
> > Message-ID: 
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> > 
> > List,
> > 
> > As I've said many times, "I'm a perennial optimist in
> > the face of  overwhelming evidence to the contrary."
> > 
> > However, I also believe that we optimists need to
> > attract as much  attention to evidence of the problem as
> > we can muster to convince  those in doubt. Hopefully,
> > when the evidence is more widely  understood, it will
> > convince a few more that we need to build  secure 
> > bridges across the Peircean triadic/dyadic divide which
> > Percy  called 
> > A Fateful Rift.
> > 
> > At the risk of preaching to the choir, I am directing
> > your  attention 
> > to this posting Resistance is Futile 
> > I 
> > believe it is a sign that concern is alive and growing.
> > 
> > BTW www.korrektiv.org is the blog that is currently
> > hosting the  seminar/discussion about Percy's Lost in
> > the Cosmos: The Last Self- HelpBook.
> > 
> > I am also recommending these signposts to some of my
> > unknowing or  doubting friends who need to be nudged.
> > 
> > Respectfully,
> > 
> > John 
> > -------------- next part --------------
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> > 
> > _______________________________________________
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> > Percy-L AT lists.ibiblio.org
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> > 
> > 
> > End of Percy-L Digest, Vol 48, Issue 4
> > **************************************
> > --
> > An archive of all list discussion is available at 
> > https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/percy-l/
> > 
> > Visit the Walker Percy Project at
> > http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy 
> --
> An archive of all list discussion is available at
> https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/percy-l/
> 
> Visit the Walker Percy Project at
> http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
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> 
> 
> End of Percy-L Digest, Vol 48, Issue 7
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