Percy-L: Literary, Religious, Scientific, and Philosophical Discussion of Walker Percy

["RHONDA MCDONNELL" <rhonda_mcdonnell AT msn.com>]

I, too, am intrigued by Rich's assessment of Lancelot. Did I misread, or did he identify Lance as a terrorist who in some repects is like the jihadists. I don't think Lance's "war" is a holy war; perhaps unholy war is a better descriptor, like the unholy grail which he seeks.

In regard to Michael's reading, I have some additional thoughts. I don't know that Lance's despair is over the failure of the Catholic church as much as it is over the disintegration of what he perceived as a clear social order, wherein gentlemen knew how to behave and knew whether a woman was a lady or a whore. Lance's views are those of the Southern Stoic, who looks back to the Roman Empire and Marcus Aurelius as his social model. If you've read Percy's bit on the Last Donahue Show (in LOST IN THE COSMOS), we've seen this type in Percy's fiction before--as early as Aunt Emily, in fact. The nihilism Lance expresses, along with the despair, are unlike the Percy I read. Instead of Lance expressing Percy's views, he is a conductor for Will Percy's Stoicism (an amped up on steriods version, but still Will's world view, not Walker's). If Walker's views belong to any character in LANCELOT, it's Fr. John, who, in spite of despair, ultimately finds hope and renewal.

To be a believer, in Percy's view, is to have hope. And this thought leads to the question, do the jihadists have hope for change in this world? Although Rich is right in pointing out that outsiders cannot completely understand the motives of the jihadists, from the outside, it looks like they do have a vision of a new world order. So there is a disturbing truth for those of us who designate ourselves as believers. Those "others" who we have so much difficulty understanding are, like us, believers. I suspect we're unlikely to change our definition of "true" belief, as unlikely as they are. Whereas, Lance seems to be ready to at least listen to what Fr. John has to say at the novel's end. Perhaps there's a lesson there for extremists of all stripes.

Reading back over this, it looks pretty circuitous and muddled--just like the issues at hand, I suppose.

Happy New Year to all!

--Rhonda

"I'd rather learn from one bird how to sing
than teach ten thousand stars how not to dance"
 
                                    e.e. cummings

---

From: "Michael Larson" <Mlarson AT SOUTHEASTMN.EDU>
Reply-To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" <percy-l AT lists.ibiblio.org>
To: <percy-l AT lists.ibiblio.org>
Subject: [percy-l] Lancelot the Jihadist
Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 18:30:18 -0600
>An interesting observation, Rich Gray, about Lancelot Lamar. He is perhaps, at least prior to ending up in a mental prison, a jihadist of sorts: he does blow up the "infidels" with no regard for his own safety. But there is no expectation of eternal reward when he engages in this act. That is to say, he does not do it for religious reasons but rather for the failure of religion, and in particular, the Catholic religion.
>
>The section you quote from the novel is an anguished Percy himself speaking through Lance. For the first time in the 1900-year history of the Church, it had tried officially and universally, through the Second Vatican Council, to make friends with the world. By the time Percy wrote Lancelot (in the 1970s), he could already perceive (the canary in the coal mine) the disastrous results of this duplicity. Clearly, it grieved him, for he had staked everything on the Church's impermeability, its otherworldliness, and he saw that evaporating (at least in the popular church) before his very eyes.
>
>If Lancelot's idealogy divides the sheep and the goats, it does nothing more than orthodox Christianity has always done (a theme in the Gospels, The Apocalypse, The City of God, etc.). Lancelot's error is not in his divisive instinct (the sword, which Christ claimed to bring, does indeed divide), but in his vigilante justice. Since he has given up on God, he assumes for himself the role of dispensing justice as he sees fit.
>
>At the end of our world, justice (as well as mercy) truly will be served. In the world of Belle Isle, it is even possible that Lancelot became an actual instrument of true justice. But even if that were the case, it would merely be the workings of God's providence and by no means an intrinsic validation of Lancelot's objectively evil act.
>
>Best regards,
>Michael Larson
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: percy-l-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org on behalf of percy-l-request AT lists.ibiblio.org
>Sent: Sat 12/23/2006 11:00 AM
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>Subject: Percy-L Digest, Vol 43, Issue 5
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>Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: Believers... (Gray, Rich)
>
>
>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Message: 1
>Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2006 12:52:24 -0500
>From: "Gray, Rich" <RGray AT montreat.edu>
>Subject: Re: [percy-l] Believers...
>To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion"
> <percy-l AT lists.ibiblio.org>
>Message-ID:
> <CAC5B33076E9264A9E79A4F6145C23FA05267DEF AT e2kmail.montreat.edu>
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>
>I am not persuaded that any non-Arab understands jihadists. Maybe no
>Arabs understand them either. But Arabs will probably be first to
>figure them out.
>
>
>
>Percy's Lancelot Lamar is a terrorist, mentally unbalanced, disappointed
>in life, and holding to a rationalized ideology that permits him to
>divide the whole culture into sheep and goats, with himself as god.
>Like jihadists, his killing has little or no correction on the social
>misbehavior he deplores. Like jihadists, Lance expected to die in his
>executing explosion of his home, Belle Isle. Ranting is Lance's lingo:
>
>
>
>"I cannot tolerate this age. And I will not. I might have tolerated
>you and your Catholic Church, and even joined it, if you had remained
>true to yourself. Now you're part of the age. You've the same fleas as
>the dogs you've lain down with. I would have felt at home at
>Mont-Saint-Michel [loads of irony here], the Mount of the Archangel [?]
>with the flaming sword, or with Richard Coeur de Lion at Acre [more
>irony]. They believed in a god who said he came not to bring peace but
>the sword. Make love not war? I'll take war rather than what this age
>calls love." (pp. 157-8)
>
>
>
>Rich Gray
>
>
>
>I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen, not only
>because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.
>
>C.S. Lewis
>
> _____
>
>From: RHONDA MCDONNELL [mailto:rhonda_mcdonnell AT msn.com]
>Sent: Thursday, December 21, 2006 11:37 PM
>To: percy-l AT lists.ibiblio.org
>Subject: Re: [percy-l] Believers...
>
>
>
>So what do you all think Percy might make of the jihadists? I've been
>wondering that lately, in light of his thoughts regarding Nazi Germany
>and the "tenderness leads to terror" concept that he and Flannery
>O'Connor shared. We can't accuse the jihadists of falling prey to
>scientific humanism, that's for sure. But what to make of their sort of
>belief? It seems to me to be as abstracted as any -ism out there, but
>I'm looking from the outside. Anyone with insight?
>
>--Rhonda
>
>"I'd rather learn from one bird how to sing
>than teach ten thousand stars how not to dance"
>
> e.e. cummings
>
>
> _____
>
>
> From: <Robert_Pauley AT oxy.com>
> Reply-To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion"
><percy-l AT lists.ibiblio.org>
> To: <percy-l AT lists.ibiblio.org>
> Subject: Re: [percy-l] Believers...
> Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 16:25:39 -0800
>
> Rhonda: I was drawn in to a running conversation about God with
>a group of men. The sort of conversation which, to quite Percy, "give me
>a neckache." This passage came to me, vaguely, but with a memory of
>pungent satisfaction. (Percy's ruminations on faith are always on the
>edges of my consciousness, I guess). I remembered how Percy managed to
>displease everybody and yet get at the old dilemma of faith in a fresh
>way. I, too, wanted to displease and provoke. I also thought it was a
>good opportunity to introduce Percy to a bunch of young people.
>
> regards, R
>
>
>
>
> _____
>
>
> From: percy-l-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org
>[mailto:percy-l-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of RHONDA MCDONNELL
> Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2006 4:09 PM
> To: percy-l AT lists.ibiblio.org
> Subject: Re: [percy-l] Believers...
>
> Just for curiousity's sake, what are you using the passage for?
>
> --Rhonda
>
> "I'd rather learn from one bird how to sing
> than teach ten thousand stars how not to dance"
>
> e.e. cummings
>
>
> _____
>
>
> From: <Robert_Pauley AT oxy.com>
> Reply-To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical
>Discussion" <percy-l AT lists.ibiblio.org>
> To: <percy-l AT lists.ibiblio.org>
> Subject: Re: [percy-l] Believers...
> Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 15:55:08 -0800
>
> Found it referred to in an essay by Kent Gramm. From The
>Second Coming. Of course it is much longer than this. Thank you.
>
>
>
> Excerpts:
>
> There are only two classes of people, the believers and
>the unbelievers. The only difficulty is deciding which is the more
>feckless.
>
> ... As unacceptable as believers are, unbelievers are
>even worse.
>
> ... The present day unbeliever is crazy because he finds
>himself born into a world of endless wonders, having no notion how he
>got here, a world in which he eats, sleeps ... works, grows old, gets
>sick, and dies, and... Not once in his entire life does it cross his
>mind to say to himself that his situation is preposterous...
>
> ... The more intelligent he is, the crazier he is... He
>is as insane as a French intellectual.
>
>
>
>
> _____
>
>
> From: percy-l-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org
>[mailto:percy-l-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of
>RobtSchaefer AT aol.com
> Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2006 3:33 PM
> To: percy-l AT lists.ibiblio.org
> Subject: Re: [percy-l] Believers...
>
> "To people! To unbelievers and to so-called believers."
>...
>
>
>
> Fr. Smith is talking to Tom More about how words have
>been deprived of their meaning.
>
>
>
> The Thanatos Syndrome, Section II, part 6 (or chapter 6)
>
>
>
> R. Schaefer
>
> Mobile
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >--
> >An archive of all list discussion is available at
>https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/percy-l/
> >
> >Visit the Walker Percy Project at
>http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy
>
>
>
>
>
> _____
>
>
> Experience the magic of the holidays. Talk to Santa on
>Messenger. <http://g.msn.com/8HMAENUS/2743??PS=47575>
>
> >--
> >An archive of all list discussion is available at
>https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/percy-l/
> >
> >Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy
>
>
>
>
> _____
>
>The MSN Entertainment Guide to Golden Globes is here. Get all the scoop.
><http://g.msn.com/8HMBENUS/2740??PS=47575>
>
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