Percy-L: Literary, Religious, Scientific, and Philosophical Discussion of Walker Percy

["James Piat" <piat1 AT bellsouth.net>]

Dear Steven,

Well it's not so clear to me.  I think it would be helpful to see if we can
get real clear about what we mean by knowing or studying.  What in its most
basic form is the essence of these terms.  Otherwise I think the issue we
are discussing will always get lost  or escape our grasp.

And yes I too am please we are giving this central Percy concern another
look.

Jim  -- I'll shut up for a while now!
> They don't study themselves. Humans do. I don't want to be too simplistic,
> but I think the answer is startlingly simple. It's clear that animals
don't
> know that they "know" because they aren't studying themselves,
constructing
> theories about themselves, or about their knowledge, or about their
origins,
> or about their fate. (Although, we can't really say animals "know"
anything
> at all for knowing is depending upon whether the knower knows it is
knowing)
>
>
>
>
>
>
>  -----Original Message-----
> From: James Piat [mailto:piat1 AT bellsouth.net]
> Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2002 3:26 PM
> To: percy-l AT lists.ibiblio.org
> Subject: Re: [percy-l] animal communication and consciousness
>
> >> Human beings don't just know; they know that they know. This is a huge
> > difference between us and animals.
>
> Dear Ken--
>
> Neat way to put the matter --  How might one demonstrate that one knows
> something and in particular that one knows that he knows it?  Or that an
non
> human knows something but not that he knows he knows it?
>
> I'm not trying to be a smart alec  -- I think you've got to the crux of
what
> may be the big distinction between human and non human language or
> communication (be it qualitative or merely a matter of degree and I'm
> wondering how we might pin this down a bit more objectively or
> operationally.
>
> Jim Piat
>
>  We take delight in knowing and speaking
> > and we  know that we do that. Walter Ong points out that baby human
beings
> > don't exactly have to be taught language (tho most parents encourage
that
> > process); rather, it takes a concerted effort to prevent a (healthy)
human
> > child from learning language, which is symbolic in nature, not a system
of
> > signs (despite the confusion our printed words visit on us).  Percy
> > understood the significance of our symbolic language. Those who want to
> > equate animal communication with human speech haven't made that
discovery,
> > i.e. it is not just animal communication that they don't grasp.
> >
> > Ken Armstrong
> >
> >
> > --
> >
> > An archive of all list discussion is available at
> http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy/hypermail
> >
> > Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy
>
> --
>
> An archive of all list discussion is available at
> http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy/hypermail
>
> Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy
> --
>
> An archive of all list discussion is available at
http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy/hypermail
>
> Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy