Percy-L: Literary, Religious, Scientific, and Philosophical Discussion of Walker Percy

[Mike Frentz <mfrentz AT bbn.com>]

Sunni,

I think Percy would take offense to the totally inaccurate use of language in 
discussing this by
blindly parroting the press, as used in previous posts via the term 
"pedophilia".  Pedophilia is
not what this problem is about.  Sexual sin (in this case covered by the 
Church's definition of
sodomy and heterosexual fornication), the scandal imposed on the young 
through this sin, and the
refutation of sworn vows to effectively "place the flock above the shepherd" 
is the problem.
These are grave problems that should never have been tolerated within the 
Church (and which the
Church must likewise openly condemn within society).

The representative case from what I've seen seems to be a man with homosexual 
tendencies
(typically with a poor relationship with his own father), who seemed to sense 
in his heart
homosexuality was wrong, and went into the priesthood with good intentions 
but for the wrong
reasons (to stifle his homosexual tendencies rather than deal with the 
problem).  This type of
person never should have made the cut for priesthood, but they did, for a 
variety of reasons
(one of which, for better or worse, is certain bishops implicit denial of 
homosexuality as a
disorder despite Church teaching).  In no way did I imply that the adolescent 
was to blame.

The Church is comprised of individuals, but they are individuals who are in 
communion as the
Body of Christ.  Without the faithful you don't have a Church.  Without the 
infaithful, you
don't have humanity.  Unfortunately, they go together. But still, you don't 
reject Peter just
because Judas was a bastard.  The people are the Church only as the 
embodiment of the true
doctrine.

At least the RCC is held to a higher standard than the rest of society.  I 
regard that as a
positive sign (for all).  Back to Percy (I hope?)


Mike




Sunni Kay Zuniga wrote:

> Clarification: It's unfair to say that most of the cases were not with
> teenagers or post pubescent adults (as you term them, Mike). Believe me, I'm
> living right in the middle of this in Boston right now and am unfortunately
> used to hearing victim's stories. Most of the men seemed to be around the
> age of 12 or 13 at the time of the abuse (13 may technically be a teenager,
> but it's a pretty fine line between non-teen and teen at 13) and many
> children as young as six suffered abuse at the hands of priests. The abuse
> continued into their teenage years in some of the cases, which may be part
> of the confusion regarding the ages.
>
> And, further, FWIW, why does it seem to make a difference if these were not
> children but teenagers (still troubling) and homosexual rather than
> heterosexual? Are you implying that some of this activity was perhaps
> instigated by homosexual teenagers? The church itself has made this unwise
> deduction themselves recently and it has subsequently caused the stir it
> should.
>
> Lastly, a crisis in the individuals in a church IS a crisis in the church.
> The church is the individuals. Doctrine won't save the church's ass forever.
> Some of this mess will have to be addressed in a larger fashion than through
> laying the blame on  individuals.
>
> But, this seems far off of Percy.
>
> Just my thoughts,
> Sunni
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Mike Frentz" <mfrentz AT bbn.com>
> To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion"
> <percy-l AT franklin.oit.unc.edu>
> Sent: Tuesday, May 07, 2002 10:45 PM
> Subject: [percy-l] A comment re "pedophilia"
>
> > One more brief comment (sorry about the funny spacing in my last message,
> I had cut and paste
> > the message I had written earlier that for some reason didn't post,
> hopefully this one is
> > okay..).  This is also not so obviously Percy-centric, but it tries to
> clarify a misleading
> > comment in several recent posts.
> >
> > The term pedophilia has been used in most of the recent messages (and
> bandied in the press).
> > Almost all of the cases were with teenagers (post pubescent) or adults,
> not children per se, so
> > the term pedophilia is very misleading.  FWIW, the majority of these cases
> were also homosexual,
> > rather than heterosexual, a case the press seems reluctant to advertise
> (possibly because it
> > dignifies the Boy Scout and Supreme Court decisions?).
> >
> > Many of the seminaries deviated significantly from Church teaching in the
> late sixties,
> > seventies, and eighties in a post Vatican II misapplication frenzy and
> tolerated dissension
> > (e.g. birth control, soft pedaling of prolife and homosexual issues) that
> was clearly in
> > violation of magisterial Church teaching.  I have heard from many devout
> priests over the last
> > few years (and indeed, the priests that I've met who've been ordained
> recently appear to be much
> > more devout than their superiors) that many (most?) of the seminaries have
> reformed and are true
> > to Rome, and those that have generally also have increasing enrollments.
> A priest is married to
> > the Church.  The Church believes that celibacy is a gift from God (and
> there are actually a
> > growing number of celibate lay Catholic ecclesiastical movements).  My
> wife goes to a
> > Protestant-based Bible study.  The apparent number of bitter ministers'
> wives there appears not
> > to be a positive solution to priestly recruiting dilemma --  I believe
> that faithful bishops
> > are.
> >
> > Per a recent Wall Street Journal article on a very traditional parish
> smack dab in the middle of
> > Silicon Valley, the pastor's motto there is "Support the Faith and the
> faithful will support the
> > Church."  His enrollment is busting at the seams.  That's what will turn
> the seminarial tide..
> >
> >
> > Mike
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Robert_Pauley AT oxy.com wrote:
> >
> > > Is the incidence of cleric pedophilia any greater than in any average
> > > sampling of adult male population? This seems important to know but I
> can't
> > > recall any analysis or discussion of it. As for the church's response,
> it is
> > > just about the same as any and every hidebound institution's response to
> > > scandal throughout history, right up to Enron's denials and shredding
> > > machines.
> > >
> > > It seems to me Percy's response would be both complex and morally clear.
> I
> > > think he would understand the fact, pardon the vulgarity, of buggerers.
> As a
> > > scientist of the human condition, he would note it as one more "covert
> > > lewdness." I think he would point out the fashionable fallacy of the
> > > "solution" of married priests. I think he would properly lambaste the
> > > corpulence and arrogance of those Cardinal Bernard Laws who have spent
> far
> > > too much time in sirloin and lobster dinners with the Church's sugar
> daddies
> > > than in tending to their flocks. And I think he would reaffirm those
> things
> > > of the Church and faith which are beyond the depredations of bad men.
> I've
> > > never much cared for hypothesizing in this manner, but still I do it,
> and so
> > > I welcome any challenges.
> > >
> > > R Pauley
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Karey Perkins [mailto:karey AT charter.net]
> > > Sent: Tuesday, May 07, 2002 6:06 PM
> > > To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion
> > > Subject: [percy-l] Re: Was Percy ever involved in the debate on
> > > molestations by Catholic priests?
> > >
> > > My comment was more about the fact that married priests are the answer
> to
> > > the "dearth of priests" that now exist in the American Catholic Church,
> and
> > > the fact that many very qualified, quality young men who would like to
> be
> > > priests are not choosing that profession due to the celibacy
> requirement, so
> > > that there is now a crisis in the church when it comes to its
> leadership.
> > >
> > > Pedophiliacs, as Wade had said already, will gravitate to any profession
> > > that provides access to children.  Boy scouts, teaching, coaching,
> > > priesthood.  (Whether or not these are married professions or not.)
> > > Unfortunately, these are the professions (and those in those
> professions)
> > > that we usually hold to be most admirable, because they involve
> mentoring
> > > children.
> > >
> > > KP
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Nelson [mailto:nelson AT newulmtel.net]
> > > Sent: Tuesday, May 07, 2002 7:16 PM
> > > To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion
> > > Subject: [percy-l] Re: Was Percy ever involved in the debate on
> > > molestations by Catholic priests?
> > >
> > > >And, are married priests the answer, as might be the >logical
> conclusion
> > > >given America's dearth of priests, the recent >pedophilia scandals,
> > >
> > > I am a lurker mostly but this idea I have never understood. how would
> being
> > > married cut down on child abuse in the church? lots of married men many
> men
> > > in secular world indulge in pedophilia.
> > >
> > > Thanks!
> > > Ryan Nelson
> > >
> > > --
> > > An archive of all list discussion is available at
> > > <http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy/hypermail>.
> > > Visit the Walker Percy Project at <http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy>.
> > >
> > > --
> > > An archive of all list discussion is available at
> > > <http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy/hypermail>.
> > > Visit the Walker Percy Project at <http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy>.
> > >
> > > --
> > > An archive of all list discussion is available at
> <http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy/hypermail>.
> > > Visit the Walker Percy Project at <http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy>.
> >
> >
> > --
> > An archive of all list discussion is available at
> <http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy/hypermail>.
> > Visit the Walker Percy Project at <http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy>.
>
> --
> An archive of all list discussion is available at 
> <http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy/hypermail>.
> Visit the Walker Percy Project at <http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy>.