pcplantdb

[Stephanie Gerson <sgerson@stanfordalumni.org>]

hi again yalls,

Been up for a few hours, thinking about the website and making 
suggestions which I will send out soon.  Although I think we should all 
offer feedback about the website - Johns, isn't this your job?  Aren't 
you in charge of QA, and shouldn't that extend to QAing the website UI?  

A few responses to synthesis[29] items:

1.  'press release' - Johns says wait and Lawrence says go for it.  Chad?  
Rich?  others?  I agree that networking would help with grant proposals, 
so I'm interested in announcing ourselves sooner rather than later.  We 
don't need to solicit participation (yet), just announce the project.  We 
could even be explicit about the fact that we are looking for more 
funding, and ask for responses of support.

2.  3-dimensional representation of search results - if you searched by 
multiple characteristics, how would you display this Johns?  on an xy 
graph?  what if there were more than 2 characteristics?  which is why 
Lawrence and I were suggesting a 3D representation (i.e. a cube) on which 
you could see the characteristics you sorted by mapped onto a 3D object.  
does this make better sense?

3.  feature creep, crop-rotation program, and WSF - yes, this may be 
feature creep, but it's fun to dream ;)  

With respect to replacing human thought/skill with automation, Johns 
writes “Yeah, that was my original argument against this very project.”  
I definitely hear that. How can PIW not encourage the latter, but help 
facilitate the former? And how can we respond to this sentiment on our 
website, make it explicit that we are aware of this? Maybe initiate a 
discussion about this on our listserv once we have a critical mass of 
folks?  Definitely something to be discussed with our 'audience.'

Also in response to Johns, maybe WSF needs a lesson in Pc, but we need $ 
– so how do we tailor what we write to their mission/vision?

Jonhns writes “What's this nonsense about applicability to larger-scale 
ag when they themselves say it's clearly unsustainable?”  But that's 
their point exactly.  Which is why they are trying to render it 
sustainable.  They are not saying that large-scale in itself is 
unsustainable, just that modern large-scale ag is.  How can we - Pc and 
PIW - help render modern large-scale ag sustainable?
 
Ok, website comments coming next.

peace
*Stephanie


------ Original Message ------
Received: 08:50 AM PST, 12/05/2004
From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <lfl@intrex.net>
To: Permaculture Plant Database <pcplantdb@lists.ibiblio.org>
Subject: Re: [pcplantdb] synthesis[29][12.04.04]

Stephanie Gerson wrote:

 > 2. Lawrence suggested that we get in touch with the International Seed
 > Saving Institute.  Which brings up the question all over again: are we
 > ready to publicly announce ourselves?  Now that we have a URL, are
 > decided on our platform, and are hosted on Ibiblio?  Or would we 
rather

I don't see why not. It would be advantageous to make certain groups and 
individuals
aware of what we are doing. Most of these people would likely understand 
that our
product is in development and not be put off by a lack of features, 
information and robustness.

 > wait until we’ve spruced up the website, and have something to show?

No need to wait. We will likely be in a better position to get grants if 
we have
something to show, although incomplete, and have other groups involved 
with us
on ideas and development and we are likewise involved with other 
organization's projects
and are deriving ideas from them that help us develop PIW. See below for 
more on this.

 > Even if it’s a list of PC-characteristics to include, and not a 
working
 > demo?  I’m fine with waiting, but also think that feedback from a 
‘press
 > release’ would be valuable in a grant proposal.  What do you all 
think?

It sure would, go for it.

> 6. An idea I had today while visiting a beautiful farm in Santa Cruz, 
> California.  Not that this is necessarily something PIW could take on, 
at 
> least not in the immediate future, but might be a possibility.  Crop 
> rotation schemes can be very complicated.  Where to plant what when, so 
> that you are alternating plant families in each bed throughout the 
> season, but giving rotation preference to more disease-prone families, 
> not placing overhead-watering plants next to drip plants, etc.  
> Apprentices at the USCS program have to overlay farms maps from the 
> previous 2 years over each other to determine what ought to go where.  
So 
> of course I got to thinking about hg.  And about the possibility of a 
> program into which you could enter information – crops that must be 
> grown, which families they pertain to, how many beds you have, etc. – 
and 
> have it help you plan a crop rotation schedule.  I agree that this 
might 
> not be the best program to write, considering that it replaces human 
> thought/skill with automation, which will never account for all the 
> variables anyway.  

This is a gret idea, Stephanie. We should discuss this at length here
as it may be possible to include some aspects of this sort of 
functionality
in our relationships database. Another thing to consider other than crop 
rotation
for disease suppression is the need to consider whether plants are 
companion or antagonistic
to one another for such reasons as being growth promoting or growth 
hindering.

On the subject of disease suppression here is a fascinating post from 
John d'Hondt which points out that
crop rotation for disease suppression may not always be the best plan to 
follow (especially if
you're a small farmer or market or home gardener and use natural methods 
- the chemical/conventional farmers
may need to adhere to standard rotational practices):

-
-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: [SANET-MG] soybean rust a new dread
Date: Sat, 4 Dec 2004 22:05:02 -0000
From: John D'hondt <dhondt@EIRCOM.NET>
To: SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU

 >          The more important issues is how should soybean rust be 
managed,
 > now that it is here.  This will prove especially critical for organic
 > growers who cannot rely on synthetic fungicides, even if they were a 
good
 > idea.  Does anyone have suggestions for organically approved remedies 
that
 > organic soybean growers might use?  Or that researchers should be  
evaluating?
 > JBK

I have never been able to grow soybean well because our climate is just 
too
cold for it but I live in Ireland where potato blight is omni present and
deadly. I have been an organic farmer here for almost twenty years and I
have never sprayed anything; not synthetic fungicides or even Bordeaux
mixture which I would be allowed to use as an organic farmer.

I have successfully grown potatoes for all this time through a few very
simple maverick techniques :
- I grow a great number of varieties mixed at random. The reason for this 
is
that we found that home grown seed did better than bought in seed by at
least 30%. At one time or another we bought small quantities of seed
potatoes of perhaps thirty different varieties. For the last ten years or 
so
I have also grown new varieties from real seed after flowering, perhaps 
one
to two hundred plants per year.
- Then we have been as hard on our potatoes as we knew how. One year we
harvested after leaving most of the tubers overwinter in situ. Many were
lost I don't doubt but the ones that survived were used as seed and 
thrived.
- When plants get diseased I have never panicked and tried to destroy 
every
last particle of the afflicted plant. Instead I have left them to rot 
where
they fell. The idea behind this is that if there are fifty thousand
different species of micro organism in the soil then there should be one 
of
them making a living of Phytophtra infestans. If I gave them an extra 
dose
to eat they would get more numerous so that in the end I would have less
blight. I have for myself called this technique "soil immunization" and I
have gotten convinced that it works for my potatoes. If I knew more about
the identity and nature of my "blight-eater" I would be able to make more 
of
this than I ever would be from selling potatoes but this is not a 
priority
for me at the moment.
-I mulch heavily and put out compost after harvest but I am not obsessed
with rotation. One reason for this being that volunteer potatoes usually 
do
extremely well. Some of these have come back year after year for ten 
years
or more even if I tried to get every last little tuber out of the ground
because they were in the way of other crops.

If I were living in America this is the way I would go about solving
problems with soybean rust.
john
-

> However, we recently got a letter from the Whole Systems Foundation, 
> replying to our proposal, saying that we need to demonstrate PIW’s 
> applicability to larger-scale agriculture.  Assuming that large-scale 

Well, there you have it. Enough reason to move forward and begin getting 
involved with
other groups and individuals, especially agriculture people. This will 
provide new impetus
and direction for what we are doing, not to mention much inspiration.

> Permaculture is even possible and desirable (I know we’ve discussed 
this, 
> but let’s assume for now), the tool described above would certainly be 
> applicable to large-scale farming.  What do you think?

Absolutely and of course it would. This is a moot point. PC can be 
practiced equally effectively
from a micro scale to a grand scale, from windowsill planter gardening to 
20,000 acre broadacre farming.

LL
-- 
L.F.London
lfl@intrex.net
http://market-farming.com
http://www.ibiblio.org/ecolandtech
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+++++++++++++++
Stephanie Gerson
sgerson@stanfordalumni.org
(c) 415.871.5683


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