pcplantdb

[Scott Pittman <pci@permaculture-inst.org>]

I have to ditto the "wholly guacamole!"!!

I have been lurking, totally out of my element, in the conversation about
how to build the data base and who would be the best server host, but at
some point it has become incredible repetitive and tedious in tone. 
So my $.02 worth ....

I think that IBIBLIO is an incredible site and they host my web page, and
they seem committed to hosting the environmental community and therefore
a logical choice for this data base.  However!!  I was once
hosed by IGC (Institute for Global Communications) which had all the
ingredients listed for IBIBLIO and they were the site for every Earth
based NGO in the U.S., it seemed, they decided to change their mission
and all of us were transferred to EARTHLINK, which is my current
server.  Earthlink has nothing to do with environment or gaia or
anything else that I support, they are just a commercial server that does
a reasonable job for a reasonable price.  I say all of that because
I was just as fervent in my support of IGC as Lawrence is for IBIBLIO and
felt totally betrayed when they chose to opt out and pass me on to
Earthlink.  I actually benefited from the change because Earthlink
is a more friendly environment for computerphobes like myself.

To my mind, getting the information out is the primary purpose of all of
this; it is information that is critical to everyone who is concerned
with reconstructing perennial systems that can provide for our needs, and
the needs of the earth.  I personally don't care who hosts as long
as they have a track record (ten years in business?) and if they are
simpatico to this type of endeavor.  I also don't give a rats ass
about the particulars of the platform as long as it is flexible enough to
grow.  I have thought long and hard about this data base idea for
over 15 years and the thing that has always intimidated me about it is
that the fields keep growing.  Plant relationships are far more
complex than most anyone would ever dream of and then you complicate that
with birds, rodents, ungulates, humans, and then the micro flora and
fauna and it starts entering into the magic kingdom.  It is taking
people to this magic kingdom where the hope lies in stopping the
destruction.  So we need this db to be damned good and able to deal
complexly with complexity and convey that to people like me and allow
people like me participate in the creation.

It seems we have the personnel to create this wonderland db, and I know
that there are plenty of Universities around the U.S. as well as around
the world who could be easily persuaded to host us if it were presented
in a compelling way, so what is the problem??  What is the absolute
best way to construct this db so that it is flexible and user friendly,
and who has the capacity to host it?  Leave out the monthly cost
right now, that is the least of the worries, it doesn't matter if it
costs $500. per month or $500. per year, that money can easily be raised
and probable endowed.  It the db is hosted with a non-profit, like
UNC or UT, or UC Davis then it can be protected from predatory
individuals.  In my mind these are minor considerations.  The
major consideration is the design of the db and the input that then fills
that db with information that is revelatory and that is
available.

I have talked with the Tides Foundation which is the administrator for
Threashold Foundation and they told me that the check would be sent to
the Permaculture Institute.  It has been approved and the check is
in the mail.  That must have been three weeks ago, and I haven't
seen zip yet, but I am sure that it will come soon.  If I don't hear
anything within the next two weeks I will call them.

Sorry this has taken so much of your time, but I got tired of biting my
tongue.

I like Permaculture Information as a name.

I really appreciate the candor and transparency with which everyone
communicates, but am fearful that a little preciousness and whinging is
creeping in, could we please not go there - it can be so damaging, and
counter productive.

Stephanie you seem to have a good handle on things and I appreciate your
influence and humor, who would have thought that someone who did such an
incredible job cleaning up my garden was also an adept at organization
too.  But Bill Mollison used to say you can make a philosopher out
of a gardener but a not a philosopher into a gardener.

Scott Pittman
At 12:43 AM 8/19/2004, you wrote:

ok now I really do have to say holy guacamole!

con rajas y frijoles y arroz Mexicano…which is what I’ll  be eating
tonight because I’m at my parents’ for dinner (did I ever mention my
parents are from Mexico and I grew up with holy guacamole as a staple in
my diet?  Anyways…)
So.  Chad.  I am with you on the frustration.  Hopefully I can offer an
inspiring synthesis from my bungalow in the French Riviera which will
help to de-stagnify (my new word) this process of deciding on a platform:

-ZOPE/IBIBLIO ­ ay caramba.   
Lawrence, buddy, friend, amigo…you gotta stop changing your mind!!  Your
posts are an emotional roller-coaster for me (really) ­ first I tthink
you’re with us, then I think you’re taking a hike, then you’re back,
then
you’re leaving, and now you want to split the group up?!  Can you please
be more consistent, for the sake of my sanity?  Por favor? 

I’ve been trying to be as respectful and accommodating as possible, but
your latest post really unnerved me:

“It looks like Chad is stuck on developing HG on John H.'s Zope machine
with the prospect of paying for commercial hosting somewhere and the
remote possibility of ibiblio running Zope and moving there at that time,
maybe, maybe he hopes to host somewhere other than there permanently.”
Chad doesn’t seem stuck on anything!  As far as I can tell, Chad has been
the most honest, expressive, and willing to compromise out of all of us!

“Stephanie's silence is very curious.”
Hey, I’m enjoying the bungalow life…what can I say?  No sseriously, I just

moved, started a new job, and am looking for a home ­ so my life  is a bit
hectic at the moment.  But I wouldn’t call me silent.

“I am beginning to wonder exactly where Chad, Stephanie and John S. plan
to take our project.”
What?!  This is very upsetting to read.

Especially upsetting after Loving the ideas you presented in previous
posts about:

“canvas the pc list and the sanet-mg for quick donations of $$ to buy
ibiblio a Zope server, should the group decide to go the Zope-on-ibiblio
route - maybe Stephanie could find a small grant that we could access for
this purpose as well."

and

“Well, just thought I'd suggest that some of our $10K be used to buy a
Zope machine for ibiblio (a good investment for the future - saving us
more than the machine cost in long term hosting fees and maintenance
costs) and use most of the rest of the 10$K to pay for part of the
programming costs with the deficit coming later (RSN) as donations and
grants roll in. I will give $250 to kick things off if this option is
decided on; ibiblio's contribution can be considered a tangible donation
also and they might be able to attach a dollar amount/year to that for
promotional purposes to encourage like contributions. What do you think
of this idea?”

and especially

“If we go ahead and buy a Zope machine for ibiblio then we can start from
scratch there and will never encounter hosting, maintenance or hardware
costs ever again.  We will then be able to handle and benefit from
rapidly increased usage as we become more widely known; submissions of
material to the database by many of those users should parallel this. We
would then be in a good position to ask for and  receive more funding and
piecemeal donation via PayPal or direct payment. I think we can expect a
more rapid rise in traffic and earlier supplemental funding if we start
on ibiblio on a machine we purchase and donate to them and we should be
able to reliably cover the deficit in programming costs incurred during
development. We can launch a fundraising campaign concurrently with
permaculture.info. going online. There may be good prospects for grants
this summer and fall. A request for donations can be posted to the sanet-
mg forum and the permaculture list. What about a SARE grant? tobacco
settlement money? a low interest loan from the Permaculture Credit Union
used to buy the  Zope machine? (Scott: Is this even a remote
possibility?). What about canvassing computer dealers or manufacturers
for equipment donations: IBM, Dell, Intel.”

To help resolve the platform issue, let’s all consider what our

          * * *ideal*scenario* * *

would be.  I previously assumed that our ideal scenario was ZOPE on
Ibilbio ­ am I correct?  Because if so, let’s manifest itt!  No stopping
short of the dreams, folks, go for the gold!  (hey, it’s the Olympics
ok?)  And in order to do so, we could employ the suggestions that
Lawrence (thank you) mentioned above, and I welcome more.  (Lawrence, can
you please be more explicit?  What are SARE grants and tobacco settlement
money?)  If we do choose to pursue this scenario, and buy a dedicated
server for Ibiblio, I see 3 main categories of fund-seeking strategies:
 
a) Dedicate the, or a portion of the, Threshold grant towards this end –
This is up to everyone, because it would be coming out of our wages.  I
am fine with that, but I understand dissatisfaction with this strategy,
and we must discuss.

b) Dedicate new grant proposals towards this end ­ This would be  fine,
but the money wouldn’t come in for a .w.h.i.l.e.  So as I see it, this
ain’t much of an option, considering we want to start now.

c) Seek alternative sources of funding to allocate towards this end –
This might be our best bet.  We can ask for donations on PC lists (which
might be difficult if we have nothing to show at this point…!) orr pursue
some of the suggestions Lawrence raised.  And what if we make our use of
ZOPE contingent on the success of this strategy?  If we raise enough
money to donate a server to Ibiblio, we’ll go with ZOPE and Ibiblio.  And
otherwise?  Um…don’t wanna think about that right now ;)
Entonces, I am assuming that ZOPE on Ibiblio is our ideal.  Perhaps I am
assuming incorrectly.  So I encourage everybody to dream up their ideal
platform + hosting scenario and respond with it.  Forget feasibility for
now ­ let’s first establish a common goal in this regard,, and then we’ll

consider feasibility.  I don’t know if this is the most effective way to
approach this impasse, but envisioning the ideal always helps me make
tough decisions…
Here are some considerations:
‡ Rich pointed out that “one advantage of sticking to MySSQL for the plant

database” is “that basically every language can communicate relatively
painlessly with it.”  However, Chad responded that “Zope can integrate
with every one of 'Apache, MySQL, PHP, HTML, XML, _javascript_, Perl, PHP',
it runs on Linux and fills the role of a CGI script.  I don't think that
the tools provided by the Zope platform are limiting in anyway.”  If ZOPE
does communicate relatively painlessly as every language MySQL can, then
this would not be one advantage of using MySQL.

‡ Chad wrote, “I'm not super confident that unlimited funnding will shower

us from now on.  I was totally surprised that we got the funding we did. 
In my head this may be all we get ever and I want to make the most of it. 
I also think we can generate something with this funding that will turn
heads and generate more funding.  I think that using Zope adds a lot to
the possibility of creating something meaningful with this money.”

Si.  Claro.  I completely agree with you.  But your last sentence
definitely implicates this discussion ­ why would ZOPE add to thee
possibility of creating something meaningful?  Would using ZOPE help us
get more grants (because we are doing something innovative, and hg might
become a model for similar projects)?

‡ Richard wrote that to be “convinced of Zope,” hhe “would need a few
things
1) A hello world with objects
2) Some idea of the class hierarchy”
And Chad responded, “For 1) what did you think of the Boring product link
I posted?  For 2) do you mean you want to see a design first?  Why?” 
Rich ­ perhaps you ought to ask Chad specific questions, he mightt be able
to “convince” you…
‡ Finally, Lawrence asked a fantastic question (so fantastic, in  fact,
that I can’t believe I hadn’t asked it myself): “Curious about the pc
relationships/connections between objects graphical mapping idea
discussed in some depth before that is important to Stephanie and to
satisfying the terms of the grant. Can building HG (the software) with
this feature be done easier or faster or better with Zope rather than
MySQL/Eden/etc?” 

And Chad responded, “There really isn't a way to display dynamic graphics
in a web browser short of using Java as in TouchGraph.  One of the big
time saving issues with using Zope is that we don't have to fully
normalize our database schema.  The object model is so different that
this sort of process isn't necessary.  My first thought when I started to
seriously consider the possibility of using an RDBMS (MySQL) instead of
Zope is that wow, we are going to need 200-300 tables here.”  Huh? 

So, what I would Love to know is, which platform is more conducive to
representing maps of relationships ­ or, Permaculture informationn webs? 
I deem this a highly critical factor in determining our ideal…
Let's try to reach an agreement that we are all satisfied with.


-NAME ­ A decision I had thought that we had made.  Darn.  Well,  we’re
almost there.  So now the vote is between Permaculture Information Web
and Open Permaculture Project.  Please vote.  Might as well - it’s less
stressful than the whole Ibiblio/ZOPE thang and it’ll make you feel
accomplished.


-THRESHOLD AND BUDGET­ 
Rich, I am responding to your post but this is for everyone:

“Just wondering if there has been any further news from Threshold
Foundation. Do we know when the money is coming in, are there any pre-
contitions before we get the loot. etc...”
I contacted them by phone a few weeks ago, but never heard back.  I will
contact them again.  Scott, did you ever speak with them?

“As to the 10-20% overheads, I've little idea as to how we are going to
spend the other 80% we don't really need that much else.”
I have cut and pasted the budget from the grant proposal below so you can
review how we proposed to allocate our funds.

“The one thing I do really think we could do with is money for a meeting. 
Some admin costs, some books, maybe some consulting fees (getting someone
who knows about guilds would be cool).”
We included these sorts of costs in the proposal, and I agree that a
meeting would certainly help!  Once again, check the budget below.

“In the UK we have a difference between capital projects (where the money
goes on buying a bunch of tools/buildings etc) and revenue projects
(money for wages). Different funders specialise in different aspects.”
Can you please recommend any funders which specialize in purely revenue
projects?  That would be fantastic.

“Personal feeling is that Jim will realise that we are mainly in the
revenue domain.”
It’s not about Jim realizing anything ­ we submitted a buudget along with
our proposal and we are supposed to stick to it.  He doesn’t monitor how
projects allocate their funds anyway, he is on the panel which reviews
grant proposals and assesses their merit.

“BTW has their been any recent communication from Jim (I might easily
have missed something).”
No, but now that I am back in the bay area, I do plan on meeting with him
in person.  He sounds like a fascinating person!

Related, Lawrence wrote “Stephanie's statement that our grant (future
ones too?) allows only a small percentage to be used for wages. This
needs to be changed early on or HG will go nowhere.” 
Hey hey now, this isn’t up to me!  As I already said, it is the
foundations themselves that usually only allow 10-20% of funding to be
allocated towards wages.  The only way this can “be changed,” as you put
it, is if we seek funding from foundations which specialize in revenue
projects (as Rich described) or ask for an exception because this project
primarily involves intellectual property (as Chad described), at least in
future grant proposals.  Ok?


-PROJECT PLAN ­ I spent so long responding to this post, that I nnever got
‘round to updating the project plan.  Apologies.  Will do so soon, but
our first priority is definitely resolving this platform issue.  And will
also read the Haystack article (thanks, Chad).


-MISCELLANEOUS ­ 
‡ Lawrence asked if he could create a public forum on Ibiblio.  WWhat will
the public forum be for?  And if you wanted me to wait to send a post to
the PC lists, why are we creating a public forum?  (Or am I confused
about its function?)

‡ Chad brought up a great point, “In a less focused way,  I hope HG will
both accommodate and encourage a lot of brainstorming.”  Actually, this
is something Jim and I discussed extensively ­ the potential for  this
project to create truly effective mechanisms for online collaboration and
information exchange.  And, this is something which Jim’s own
organization, Planetwork (http://www.planetwork.net/index.html), is
heavily involved with ­ and probably contributed to his interest  in hg. 
So yes, I agree that we are part of a larger effort to develop mechanisms
for e-brainstorming (akk, awful combination of words but you know what I
mean), and perhaps serve a model for other virtual communities seeking to
do the same.  I also included this intention in our grant proposals.

‡ Lawrence asked, “what proportion of the total body of iinformation made
available by HG would be non-HG proprietary resources gleaned from
outside sources?”  Hmmm, good question.  I would like hg to be rich
information-wise, without becoming monstrous, un-navigable, and without
re-inventing the wheel.  I assume we will become more systematic and
deliberate in deciding when to include the actual information and when to
offer links to “outside resources” as we build hg, but I would rather
integrate ourselves within the existing informational infrastructure than
try to make hg the wal-mart of Permaculture knowledge.  Whoa.  You get
the idea.  (Sorry, it’s getting late and I’m becoming less articulate. 
Although that was a rhyme…kind of.)
‡ Ok, I am super embarrassed to be asking this question so late iin the
game…but can someone please teach me (in plain English, o espanoll) how to
respond directly to threads instead of always creating my own subject –
here’s the catch ­ from the archives?  Because I stopped  receiving
pcplantdb posts in emails, and simply read and respond through the
archives, but I can find no way of responding directly to posts/threads. 
Is there a way to do this on the archives, or is it only possible if I
receive emails and then respond directly to them?

+ - + - +

To sum up this monstrously long post, hey folks - this is supposed be
enjoyable, inspiring, challenging, exciting…remember?  I feel thaat we’ve
assembled a group of highly talented and dedicated individuals, and I
think we should work together.  No more threats or ultimatums, please
Lawrence?  Think Permaculture.  Think creating meaningful and successful
relationships between system components, in this case, the individuals in
this group.  Think maximizing flow.  Think transforming problems into
solutions.  Think of all those principles you’ve learned in your PDC
courses or Permaculture Design Manuals and apply them right here.  Now. 
To us.  And the way we interact.

Perhaps this is the initial challenge, the rite of passage, testing our
ability to create a resource of Permaculture relationships by testing our
ability to practice Permaculture within our own relationships.  Maybe I’m
trying to justify this situation, maybe I’m just being cheesy, maybe I’m
delirious and should go to sleep…but in the same way that the meddium must
match the message, the :M:E:T:H:O:D:O:L:O:G:Y: must match the message as
well.

ya dig?

Bueno.  Ya me voy a dormir.  The next posts I read better make me smile…

peace(!!!!!!!!!!!)
*s

p.s. Don’t forget about the budget below if you want to check it out.

p.p.s. If this post seemed a bit schizophrenic, I wrote part of it while
I was wide awake before the holy guacamole and part of it while I was
tired and full after the holy guacamole.

================

Following is the budget from the Threshold grant proposal.  Please note:
things might have changed since! 

Project Budget
To note: considering that this project intends to promote widespread
cultivation of Permaculture principles, we recognize that we must apply
these principles to our grant seeking and project development processes. 
Accordingly, we have deliberately practiced Permaculture principles in
devising our budget costs—namely, using available resources wheneever
possible, stacking functions, building relationships with potential
collaborators, and ultimately, insert this project within an existing
‘guild,’ in this case, of Permaculture resources, to achieve symbiosis
between all components.  And in so doing, we have eliminated many costs
from our previous budget, including: web hosting/server, which the
Ibiblios.org site has agreed to provide free of charge; project-
participant meeting, which we have combined with dissemination/
presentation/conference costs (conduct meeting while attending a
Permaculture convention, instead of as an isolated event); marketing/
publicity, which we plan to perform ourselves through magazine articles,
email, and related listservs and forums; and perhaps most significant,
web-development software, which we plan to use open-source versions of,
such as MySQL, PHP, Zope, and Touchgraph.  With that, our remaining
budget costs include:

Equipment/Technology
License costs of datasets/photo galleries—access to 1,000+ imagess on The
Plants For A Future photo gallery       $800
Website—Domain name     $10-$15 per year
Total   $815

Travel Expenses
Project-participant meeting & Dissemination/Presentation/Conference
visits—for all project participants to simultaneously convene in  person
and present/gather information at Permaculture conference
        $1,000 total travel cost
$700 total conference fee
$1700 total per event (plan 2 per year)
Research—conducting on-site research/interviews         $700/year
Total   $2,400

Research Tools
Books   $30
Journal Subscriptions   $30
Total   $60

Wages (participant biographies attached)
Stephanie Gerson—Project Coordination/Administration, Public Relaations,
HCI/UI Design, Interactive Education Design     $15/hour
Richard Morris—Programming, Web Development     $15/hour
John Schinnerer—User-testing, Whole Systems Design      $15/hour
Lawrence London—Webspace, Web Design, Web Maintenance, Wikis/Webllogs/
Mailing Lists (virtual project development/communication tools), Subject
Matter Expert   $15/hour
Paula Westmoreland—Subject Matter Expert (USDA Zones 3,4,5), Dataabase
Development/Maintenance $15/hour
Robin Williamson—Subject Matter Expert for Australia, Outreach too
indigenous/low-income populations in Kempsey, Australia $15/hour
Total   $95,000

Communications
Telephone Service       $5/month/person
Internet Service        $25/month/person
Total   $2,160


     Total Budget Cost $100,435


+++++++++++++++
Stephanie Gerson
sgerson@stanfordalumni.org
(c) 415.871.5683


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