Permaculture Database

["Lawrence F. London, Jr." <lfl@intrex.net>]

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Wikipedia's Permaculture Problems
Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 21:01:44 -0800 (PST)
From: negiliblek <negiliblek@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org

Bob Randall wrote:

> 1. conjunctive attribute definition:to call something X, it has  
> certain necessary and sufficient traits.

> 2. Disjunctive attribute definition: item  has either these traits or some 
> >others:

Kurt Gödel did a great job showing that symbolic representations are incomplete or inconsistent- but still we talk, 
write and create art to share ideas.

Zen masters tells us the finger is not the moon -but still we point.

> Prototypic  definitions:
> For me "real  
> trees" are maples while in some parts of California, palms are.

my brain has been mis-wired, when someone says "tree", I wait anxiously for clues from their mouth to indicate which 
"tree" they mean (everyone says I'm a bit strange).  I've never agreed with this linguistic "principle"; I believe it to 
be a stage of a developing mind, a stage which some never finish passing through.  Yes, I know there are studies which 
"prove it true".

See here sir, this is my helmet, and is no pot. I sit on a mighty steed, not 
an ass!

> Schematic definitions:
> "a shortstop" and "steal a base"

baseball terms are great examples of schematic definitions, but the next example fails to meet my notion of schematic 
definition:

> Try to imagine
> explaining "xeroxing" or "googling" to a person in 1910 or even 1955.

I have no problem explaining this to a person from 1910 or 1955:
"...and here we have magic box A that instantly prints a copy of the writting and art work of an original peice of paper 
onto a prepared blank peice of paper. We call this magic process xeroxing"

" ..over here we have magic box B which contains a library of sorts which we can ask questions of by means of the 
printed lettered squares.  upon entering our question, we get a variety of answers from sundry and various authors. We 
call this whole magic process googling"

"and you too can know how this magic box works for just $10,000."
sorry about that last bit, I've been in-corporated too long.

> I think it  
> is an error to seek a conjunctive attribute definition for a complex  
> schema-- though listing the traits and attributes of a permacultural  
> design certainly helps the beginner get an idea. 

Now, here,  I think I apprehend the root of your agruement and what would 
prompt you to write.

> Graham says it is  "a  
> set of ethics, principles, and design methods."  

> I would say rather  
> it is not a set of anything, but an activity or its mental  
> representation as a schema we do as part of a complex plan 

which the Zen masters and Godel have already told us we cannot, with 
completeness, communicate to others with symbols.

This does not mean we cannot conceptilze something, to know something.

This does not mean we cannot use symbols that are very close approximations to help clear up inaccurate thinking, not 
only in a beginner, but in an intelligent person, such as yourself making the incorrect example of the xerox machine 
instead of staying with the excellent example of schematic definitions found in baseball terms.

> best  
> learned through much guided practice. 

I agree, guided practice is the best way to learn ( but I have had to learn with no mentor, no guide except symbols laid 
down by other minds to the best of their ability, from which I learned and was "guided" by the symbols of many, to map 
the symbols in their incompleteness, to the real world.)

I am not trying to take a method of learning away from someone; I am trying to offer up a way for those minds coming 
behind me, who learns/struggles in seclusion to bring into creation the fruits of those trials into the elegant, 
physical world.

Without a path of symbols to make me ask "what does that mean?", I have no equal nor mentor near my elbow to jostle me 
into discovery.

> We can tell you about the ideas  
> that characterize it, but understanding permaculture's meaning comes  
> out of the engaged educated practice.

Through this database, I hope to provide a segment, a portion of  "educated" in your "engaged educated practice". I 
leave it to the user of the database to practice in their life as I cannot force them even if I could reach them.

> I can't tell you what the word "xeroxing" really means if  
> you have never done it or seen it.

again, I disagree and have shown it possible; but I still agree with your baseball term 
"stealing a base" example.

Bob, during each stage of development and testing, I'll ask you to point out the schematic defintions that I'm assuming 
people have brought to website to access the database or enter data. Assuming schematic definitions is a grave error and 
doesn't need to happen (see my magic box example). But, being human, I will make them, so I'll need you to point them out.

> We would be better off telling  
> people that pc is a complex design activity whose purposes are ...,  
> that like reading, calculus or Arabic, it cannot be understood  
> clearly except by a lengthy course of study and practice.  

This is true of any body of knowledge, art or craft; including science.
...and which anyone will discover who attempts to practice what they find in the database. I expect to see questions 
like "I tried this and this from the database and it failed... how come?"  -AND SO- the socratic dialogue begins ( i.e. 
did you do this?, is your environment such?,etc).

I ask you not to be afraid of this media instead of letting it being a weak brain babysitter like the TV has become to 
most. You won't lose clients; you'll gain them if your advice and data is good.

> We could  add that we believe with justification that it is the only likely >way our of the mess the planet is in. So everyone should become a  
> practitioner and learn what the word means.

Those that will practice let them, then let them share their ideas as indepth 
or as shallowly as they will.

 ..but let them share so that we all can learn and clear up mis-conceptions.

Those that will not practice, will not be tricked into practice.

Thank you for so gently challenging the ideals upon which my project are 
founded.

negiliblek