North American Fruit Explorers mailing list at ibiblio

[Lee Reich <leeareich@gmail.com>]

Yhere’s little empirical support for the use of ramial wood chips, as opposed 
to any old wood chips. All the theories about white rots, brown rots, 
softwood mulch, etc. sound very solid but haven’t been shown — as far as I 
know — to hold water in practice. I’ve seen the Canadian paper that everyone 
refers to in support of ramial wood chips; basically, if you read it 
carefully, it promotes use of ramial wood chips without any supporting data.

Michael Phillips reference to ramial wood chips rightly points out the higher 
nutrient composition of this younger wood. But nutrients can be added, if 
needed, which is not usually the case after wood chip mulch of any kind has 
been used and replenished over the years. He’s wrong about any wood chip 
mulch robbing nitrogen from plants during decomposition. As a mulch, 
decomposition is slow and at the interface of soil and mulch. A steady state 
is achieved with nitrogen being re-released into the soil at about the same 
rate as it’s being tied up. This is not only theory: I and many others have 
noticed this in practice. It is when wood material is mixed into the soil 
that plants get temporarily starved for nitrogen.

Practically any material is valuable as mulch. I would not turn away a source 
of wood chips made from older wood. The important point is to keep the ground 
covered with whatever you can get your hands on.

Lee Reich, PhD
Come visit my farmden at  http://www.leereich.com/blog 
<http://www.leereich.com/blog>
http://leereich.com/ <http://leereich.com/>

Books by Lee Reich:
A Northeast Gardener's Year
The Pruning Book
Weedless Gardening
Uncommon Fruits for Every Garden
Landscaping with Fruit
Grow Fruit Naturally

> On May 25, 2015, at 1:13 PM, Bob Randall <YearRoundGardening@comcast.net> 
> wrote:
> 
> Mulch hay often has a strong lignin component (Acid Detergent Fiber ADF)— 
> at least the worst hays from the point of view of feeding horses do.  
> 
> Here, (what is in the feed stores) —herbicide free mature grass hay and 
> straw hay-- as a mulch under trees has been very good.  I think shredded 
> (not chipped if you can get it) composted ramial wood (aka native mulch) 
> works even better (but that is in an area where there is a lot of both hay 
> and ramial wood mulch) and I need to pay for whatever I use. 
> 
> If one were cheaper or easier to get where I was, I would quickly take 
> either.
> 
> I think either would work much better than turf or any green, succulent 
> plants. I’m pretty sure I can find some studies on that if I go back a few 
> years and look, but they would only apply in particular climates.   Ramial 
> lasts under a tree much longer in wet hot climates than does hay and is 
> weed and herbicide free here. What will work in any given place is always 
> more complicated.  See 
> 
> http://www.agry.purdue.edu/ext/forages/publications/id-190.htm 
> <http://www.agry.purdue.edu/ext/forages/publications/id-190.htm>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramial_chipped_wood 
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramial_chipped_wood> 
> 
> For specifics on orchards see 
> http://www.groworganicapples.com/organic-orcharding-articles/ramial-wood-chip-primer.php
>  
> <http://www.groworganicapples.com/organic-orcharding-articles/ramial-wood-chip-primer.php>
> 
> Bob
> 
> 
> "Share What You Grow and What You Know!"
> 
> Bob Randall, Ph.D.
> 
> http://yearroundgardening.me
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> On May 24, 2015, at 3:45 PM, Lee Reich <leeareich@gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>> I guess I would have to see some data comparing various growth or yield 
>> parameters for the same trees growing under the same conditions with, say, 
>> wood chip mulch vs. hay mulch. My guess is that rigorous comparisons for 
>> this do not exist.
>> 
>> Not that I have anything against woody mulches. Leaves and wood chips 
>> blanket the ground beneath most of my trees (although some years, the 
>> mulch has been hay). I use wood chips and leaves because they are 
>> deposited for free at my site by arborists and landscapers.
>> 
>> Lee Reich, PhD
>> Come visit my farmden at  http://www.leereich.com/blog 
>> <http://www.leereich.com/blog> <http://www.leereich.com/blog 
>> <http://www.leereich.com/blog>>
>> http://leereich.com/ <http://leereich.com/> <http://leereich.com/ 
>> <http://leereich.com/>>
>> 
>> Books by Lee Reich:
>> A Northeast Gardener's Year
>> The Pruning Book
>> Weedless Gardening
>> Uncommon Fruits for Every Garden
>> Landscaping with Fruit
>> Grow Fruit Naturally
>> 
>>> On May 24, 2015, at 1:47 PM, Bob Randall <YearRoundGardening@comcast.net 
>>> <mailto:YearRoundGardening@comcast.net>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> What Lee says is true also.  Trees can live in all sorts of crazy places 
>>> and even “thrive.” I have seen them on rock cliffs. 
>>> I used to live on the edge of the Sahara.  There was a famous tree “The 
>>> Tree of Teneré”.  Nothing at all living around it for miles/kilometers.  
>>> See for yourself. Do an image search or
>>> 
>>> http://www.weirduniverse.net/blog/categories/C53/P20/ 
>>> <http://www.weirduniverse.net/blog/categories/C53/P20/> 
>>> <http://www.weirduniverse.net/blog/categories/C53/P20/ 
>>> <http://www.weirduniverse.net/blog/categories/C53/P20/>>
>>> 
>>> But they will do best with rotted lignin materials.
>>> 
>>> Bob
>>> 
>>> 
>>> "Share What You Grow and What You Know!"
>>> 
>>> Bob Randall. Ph.d.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> On May 24, 2015, at 12:03 PM, Lee Reich <leeareich@gmail.com 
>>>> <mailto:leeareich@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> While what Bob says is true, trees seem to also thrive when growing in 
>>>> grass, as long as it’s not too competitive (i.e. mowed low and 
>>>> frequently), or being mulched with low lignin materials. 
>>>> 
>>>> I once had to chuckle at a presentation by Dr. Ingaham, when she was 
>>>> espousing the need of trees for a fungally dominated environment. The 
>>>> audience was nodding their heads in assent as they sat beneath a lusty, 
>>>> mature red oak thriving in mown lawn.
>>>> 
>>>> Lee Reich, PhD
>>>> Come visit my farmden at  http://www.leereich.com/blog 
>>>> <http://www.leereich.com/blog> <http://www.leereich.com/blog 
>>>> <http://www.leereich.com/blog>> <http://www.leereich.com/blog 
>>>> <http://www.leereich.com/blog><http://www.leereich.com/blog 
>>>> <http://www.leereich.com/blog>>>
>>>> http://leereich.com/ <http://leereich.com/> <http://leereich.com/ 
>>>> <http://leereich.com/>> <http://leereich.com/ <http://leereich.com/> 
>>>> <http://leereich.com/ <http://leereich.com/>>>
>>>> 
>>>> Books by Lee Reich:
>>>> A Northeast Gardener's Year
>>>> The Pruning Book
>>>> Weedless Gardening
>>>> Uncommon Fruits for Every Garden
>>>> Landscaping with Fruit
>>>> Grow Fruit Naturally
>>>> 
>>>>> On May 24, 2015, at 12:23 PM, Bob Randall 
>>>>> <YearRoundGardening@comcast.net <mailto:YearRoundGardening@comcast.net> 
>>>>> <mailto:YearRoundGardening@comcast.net 
>>>>> <mailto:YearRoundGardening@comcast.net>>> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> With mulch there is always a dilemma between what is desirable and 
>>>>> feasible.  In nature, trees life in places with fungal dominant soils 
>>>>> and prefer a forest floor type mulch with lots of lignin in layers from 
>>>>> uncomposted on top to humus on the bottom.  Grasses with few exceptions 
>>>>> prefer a bacteria dominated soil.  So if you have your choice mulch 
>>>>> with shredded tree branches composted or leaves or straw, but not green 
>>>>> succulent herbaceous material including grass.  See The Soil Biology 
>>>>> Primer at 
>>>>> http://www.nrcs.usda.gov/wps/portal/nrcs/main/soils/health/biology/ 
>>>>> <http://www.nrcs.usda.gov/wps/portal/nrcs/main/soils/health/biology/><http://www.nrcs.usda.gov/wps/portal/nrcs/main/soils/health/biology/
>>>>>  
>>>>> <http://www.nrcs.usda.gov/wps/portal/nrcs/main/soils/health/biology/>><http://www.nrcs.usda.gov/wps/portal/nrcs/main/soils/health/biology/
>>>>>  
>>>>> <http://www.nrcs.usda.gov/wps/portal/nrcs/main/soils/health/biology/><http://www.nrcs.usda.gov/wps/portal/nrcs/main/soils/health/biology/
>>>>>  
>>>>> <http://www.nrcs.usda.gov/wps/portal/nrcs/main/soils/health/biology/>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> All this is made more complicated by the lack of moisture in many 
>>>>> places, so that not only is there not much material to mulch with, but 
>>>>> also it takes forever to rot unless it goes through the gut of animals.
>>>>> 
>>>>> What is possible in any given place therefore is based on knowing what 
>>>>> the aim is and doing your best with in cost and labor constraints to 
>>>>> get a solution. 
>>>>> 
>>>>> I live in warm Houston where in El Nino years it never stops raining it 
>>>>> seems, everything except concrete rots, and branches of trees grow at 
>>>>> an alarming clip, so mulching is simply a matter of finding the time to 
>>>>> do it.  Santa Fe is dry and cold a lot, so not much grows or rots. Your 
>>>>> best bet is to find plant material that is an industrial byproduct I 
>>>>> would guess.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Bob Randall
>>>>> 
>>>>> "Share What You Grow and What You Know!"
>>>>> 
>>>>> Bob Randall, Ph.D.
>>>>> 
>>>>> http://yearroundgardening.me
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>>> On May 24, 2015, at 10:52 AM, Lee Reich <leeareich@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> How about letting the grass grow wherever it wants but keeping it mown 
>>>>>> short. The organic matter from the clippings will improve the soil and 
>>>>>> the constant mowing can keep the grass from becoming too competitive.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Lee Reich, PhD
>>>>>> Come visit my farmden at  http://www.leereich.com/blog 
>>>>>> <http://www.leereich.com/blog>
>>>>>> http://leereich.com/ <http://leereich.com/>
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Books by Lee Reich:
>>>>>> A Northeast Gardener's Year
>>>>>> The Pruning Book
>>>>>> Weedless Gardening
>>>>>> Uncommon Fruits for Every Garden
>>>>>> Landscaping with Fruit
>>>>>> Grow Fruit Naturally
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On May 19, 2015, at 8:44 PM, Jay Cutts <orders@cuttsreviews.com> 
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Folks,
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Here's a dilemma I've been wrestling with for years. I'm at 7000 feet 
>>>>>>> in NM. I have a number of rather small trees planted out in a field. 
>>>>>>> There is a very invasive grass that grows in the field - I think it's 
>>>>>>> Western Wheat grass - that sends out underground runners for 4 or 5 
>>>>>>> feet.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> I don't know how to protect the soil immediately under the tree and 
>>>>>>> then out under the drip line and a little further. In some places 
>>>>>>> I've put down two layers of weed barrier, covering maybe a circle 
>>>>>>> with a diameter of 4-5 feet. It does keep the grass from coming 
>>>>>>> through but the grass roots are still pervasive in the covered area. 
>>>>>>> After a while, the grasses do poke through the weed barrier.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> I'd prefer to have a nice circle of organic mulch that would break 
>>>>>>> down in that area but then the grass goes completely wild, growing 
>>>>>>> right through the mulch.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> I'm assuming that letting the grass grow under the tree is bad. I 
>>>>>>> guess it will use up nutrients and just feels like it's choking the 
>>>>>>> tree out.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> I'm wondering if there is something I can plant under the trees that 
>>>>>>> would outcompete the weedy grass. The weed grass doesn't do as well 
>>>>>>> if it gets shaded out (the trees are too small to create shade) 
>>>>>>> though it will still spread.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> If I planted something like alfalfa, could I plant it right up to the 
>>>>>>> base of a young tree? If I leave the area immediately under the tree 
>>>>>>> bare or mulched, the grass will come in.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> We only get 18 inches of rain a year, so anything that is planted for 
>>>>>>> a cover crop is going to have survive on that or it will be stealing 
>>>>>>> water from the tree.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Another issue is that the soft, mulched and watered area around the 
>>>>>>> base of the trees is perfect for attracting gophers. I've had gophers 
>>>>>>> down a 5 year old tree by gnawing off the base in the winter. Who 
>>>>>>> knows how much other damage they're doing underground to the tree 
>>>>>>> roots. So the nicer I make the soil around the trees, the more gopher 
>>>>>>> damage I have. Help!
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Jay
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Jay Cutts
>>>>>>> Director, Cutts Graduate Reviews
>>>>>>> Lead Author, Barron's MCAT Prep Book
>>>>>>> Lead Author, Barron's MCAT Flash Cards
>>>>>>> Lead Author, Barron's LSAT Prep Book
>>>>>>> (505)-281-0684
>>>>>>> 10 am to 10 pm Mt Time, 7 days
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> __________________
>>>>>>> nafex mailing list
>>>>>>> nafex@lists.ibiblio.org
>>>>>>> Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters
>>>>>>> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info:
>>>>>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex
>>>>>>> message archives
>>>>>>> https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/nafex
>>>>>>> Google message archive search:
>>>>>>> site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex [searchstring]
>>>>>>> nafex list mirror sites:
>>>>>>> http://ifneb.blogspot.com IFNEB Blog
>>>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/permaculturelist
>>>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/nafexlist
>>>>>>> https://sites.google.com/site/nafexmailinglist
>>>>>>> Avant Geared  http://sites.google.com/site/avantgeared
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> __________________
>>>>>> nafex mailing list
>>>>>> nafex@lists.ibiblio.org
>>>>>> Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters
>>>>>> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info:
>>>>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex
>>>>>> message archives
>>>>>> https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/nafex
>>>>>> Google message archive search:
>>>>>> site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex [searchstring]
>>>>>> nafex list mirror sites:
>>>>>> http://ifneb.blogspot.com IFNEB Blog
>>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/permaculturelist
>>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/nafexlist
>>>>>> https://sites.google.com/site/nafexmailinglist
>>>>>> Avant Geared  http://sites.google.com/site/avantgeared
>>>>> 
>>>>> __________________
>>>>> nafex mailing list
>>>>> nafex@lists.ibiblio.org <mailto:nafex@lists.ibiblio.org> 
>>>>> <mailto:nafex@lists.ibiblio.org <mailto:nafex@lists.ibiblio.org>>
>>>>> Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters
>>>>> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info:
>>>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex 
>>>>> <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex> 
>>>>> <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex 
>>>>> <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex>>
>>>>> message archives
>>>>> https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/nafex 
>>>>> <https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/nafex> 
>>>>> <https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/nafex 
>>>>> <https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/nafex>>
>>>>> Google message archive search:
>>>>> site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex 
>>>>> <https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/nafex> 
>>>>> <https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/nafex 
>>>>> <https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/nafex>> [searchstring]
>>>>> nafex list mirror sites:
>>>>> http://ifneb.blogspot.com <http://ifneb.blogspot.com/> 
>>>>> <http://ifneb.blogspot.com/ <http://ifneb.blogspot.com/>> IFNEB Blog
>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/permaculturelist 
>>>>> <http://groups.google.com/group/permaculturelist> 
>>>>> <http://groups.google.com/group/permaculturelist 
>>>>> <http://groups.google.com/group/permaculturelist>>
>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/nafexlist 
>>>>> <http://groups.google.com/group/nafexlist> 
>>>>> <http://groups.google.com/group/nafexlist 
>>>>> <http://groups.google.com/group/nafexlist>>
>>>>> https://sites.google.com/site/nafexmailinglist 
>>>>> <https://sites.google.com/site/nafexmailinglist> 
>>>>> <https://sites.google.com/site/nafexmailinglist 
>>>>> <https://sites.google.com/site/nafexmailinglist>>
>>>>> Avant Geared  http://sites.google.com/site/avantgeared 
>>>>> <http://sites.google.com/site/avantgeared> 
>>>>> <http://sites.google.com/site/avantgeared 
>>>>> <http://sites.google.com/site/avantgeared>>
>>>> 
>>>> __________________
>>>> nafex mailing list
>>>> nafex@lists.ibiblio.org <mailto:nafex@lists.ibiblio.org> 
>>>> <mailto:nafex@lists.ibiblio.org <mailto:nafex@lists.ibiblio.org>>
>>>> Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters
>>>> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info:
>>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex 
>>>> <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex> 
>>>> <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex 
>>>> <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex>>
>>>> message archives
>>>> https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/nafex 
>>>> <https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/nafex> 
>>>> <https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/nafex 
>>>> <https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/nafex>>
>>>> Google message archive search:
>>>> site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex 
>>>> <https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/nafex> 
>>>> <https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/nafex 
>>>> <https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/nafex>> [searchstring]
>>>> nafex list mirror sites:
>>>> http://ifneb.blogspot.com <http://ifneb.blogspot.com/> 
>>>> <http://ifneb.blogspot.com/ <http://ifneb.blogspot.com/>> IFNEB Blog
>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/permaculturelist 
>>>> <http://groups.google.com/group/permaculturelist> 
>>>> <http://groups.google.com/group/permaculturelist 
>>>> <http://groups.google.com/group/permaculturelist>>
>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/nafexlist 
>>>> <http://groups.google.com/group/nafexlist> 
>>>> <http://groups.google.com/group/nafexlist 
>>>> <http://groups.google.com/group/nafexlist>>
>>>> https://sites.google.com/site/nafexmailinglist 
>>>> <https://sites.google.com/site/nafexmailinglist> 
>>>> <https://sites.google.com/site/nafexmailinglist 
>>>> <https://sites.google.com/site/nafexmailinglist>>
>>>> Avant Geared  http://sites.google.com/site/avantgeared 
>>>> <http://sites.google.com/site/avantgeared> 
>>>> <http://sites.google.com/site/avantgeared 
>>>> <http://sites.google.com/site/avantgeared>>
>>> __________________
>>> nafex mailing list
>>> nafex@lists.ibiblio.org
>>> Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters
>>> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info:
>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex
>>> message archives
>>> https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/nafex
>>> Google message archive search:
>>> site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex [searchstring]
>>> nafex list mirror sites:
>>> http://ifneb.blogspot.com IFNEB Blog
>>> http://groups.google.com/group/permaculturelist
>>> http://groups.google.com/group/nafexlist
>>> https://sites.google.com/site/nafexmailinglist
>>> Avant Geared  http://sites.google.com/site/avantgeared
>> 
>> __________________
>> nafex mailing list
>> nafex@lists.ibiblio.org
>> Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters
>> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info:
>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex
>> message archives
>> https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/nafex
>> Google message archive search:
>> site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex [searchstring]
>> nafex list mirror sites:
>> http://ifneb.blogspot.com IFNEB Blog
>> http://groups.google.com/group/permaculturelist
>> http://groups.google.com/group/nafexlist
>> https://sites.google.com/site/nafexmailinglist
>> Avant Geared  http://sites.google.com/site/avantgeared
> 
> __________________
> nafex mailing list
> nafex@lists.ibiblio.org
> Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters
> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info:
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex
> message archives
> https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/nafex
> Google message archive search:
> site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex [searchstring]
> nafex list mirror sites:
> http://ifneb.blogspot.com IFNEB Blog
> http://groups.google.com/group/permaculturelist
> http://groups.google.com/group/nafexlist
> https://sites.google.com/site/nafexmailinglist
> Avant Geared  http://sites.google.com/site/avantgeared