North American Fruit Explorers mailing list at ibiblio

[Hector Black <hblack1925@fastmail.fm>]

Hi Chris,
    I was curious about your experience with Goumi.  Mine is 35 years old 
here, but no invasiveness.  No seedlings coming up or underground sprouts.  
     The main reason I started working with the Genus was their capability to 
fix nitrogen.  Especially the Autumn olive.  I got a 25% increase in tree 
growth when interplanted with autumn olive.. That was black walnut and 
honeylocust.  Since N fertilizer is expensive and very polluting when made 
from natural gas, I thought this was a big plus.  Most of the genus seem to 
be pioneering species that live in gravel banks , mine tailings, bare poor 
soil and gradually improve the soil with their N-fixing capability until 
trees move in and shade them out.   I've had black walnuts shoot up from 
inside an autumn olive with enormous vigor.  Also works wonders with chinese 
chestnuts making them tall and straight - 8 ft + clear trunks.  
    Hector Black   zone 6 middle tn.


On Mar 28, 2014, at 11:24 AM, Chris Carnevale wrote:

> Goumi (Eleagnus multiflora) isn't nearly as rampant in North America as 
> Russian Olive (E. angustifolia) or Autumn Olive (E. umbellata). Also, as I 
> understand it, the invasiveness of these /Eleagni/ [plural eleagnus?] is 
> partially due to it being planted en masse by restoration crews to 
> stabilize slopes, roads, provide wildlife food, and act as a windbreak on 
> farms and ranches, etc. I learned last night that they have been planted in 
> Appalachia to help restore areas devastated by mountaintop removal coal 
> mining. So it's interesting to keep in mind that these plants, because of 
> their pioneering tendencies, have helped restore degraded ecosystems as 
> well. I'm thinking that if E. multiflora or E. latifolia, etc. are planted 
> in much more moderate ways, they wouldn't have the same potential for 
> pioneering.
> 
> Chris Carnevale
> 
> 
> On 3/28/14, 12:00 PM, nafex-request@lists.ibiblio.org wrote:
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>> 
>> Today's Topics:
>> 
>>   1.  Elaeagnus angustifolia (Robert Stanton)
>>   2. Re:  Elaeagnus angustifolia (Deb Schneider)
>>   3. Re:  Elaeagnus angustifolia (Mary Yett)
>>   4. Re:  Elaeagnus angustifolia (Idell Weydemeyer)
>>   5. Re:  Elaeagnus angustifolia (Steven Covacci)
>>   6. Re:  Elaeagnus angustifolia (Idell Weydemeyer)
>>   7. Re:  Elaeagnus angustifolia (Elizabeth Hilborn)
>>   8. Re:  Elaeagnus angustifolia (Steven Covacci)
>>   9. Re:  Elaeagnus angustifolia (Idell Weydemeyer)
>>  10. Re:  Elaeagnus angustifolia (Idell Weydemeyer)
>> 
>> 
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> 
>> Message: 1
>> Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2014 12:00:37 -0500
>> From: Robert Stanton <robert.l.stanton@gmail.com>
>> To: nafex@lists.ibiblio.org
>> Subject: [nafex] Elaeagnus angustifolia
>> Message-ID:
>>      <CAAeZ2kGVW2ymSXOMG0qc6zHv0j=GXt459-VsTrPt92yw6ufWhQ@mail.gmail.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>> 
>> Just out of curiosity, does anyone on this list consider the invasive
>> potential of the plants they use?  I dedicate a significant portion of my
>> time to removing autumn and Russian olive from landscapes here in the
>> midwest, and it's always disheartening to hear others actively planting
>> more of what needs to be removed to maintain diverse natural plant
>> communities.
>> 
>> Robert
>> 
>> 
>> ------------------------------
>> 
>> Message: 2
>> Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2014 13:45:30 -0400
>> From: Deb Schneider <debs913@gmail.com>
>> To: nafex mailing list at ibiblio <nafex@lists.ibiblio.org>
>> Subject: Re: [nafex] Elaeagnus angustifolia
>> Message-ID:
>>      <CANAPGeCm2pXU8xqX8LzSySc5SjWW7y3aFmoO4EtQ72M+pHfBdw@mail.gmail.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>> 
>> I've thought that myself.  Except for the fact that the dairy goats like to
>> eat it, the stuff is an AWFUL pest plant that spreads horribly on our
>> farm.  Berries are boring tasting too.
>> 
>> deb
>> 
>> 
>> On Thu, Mar 27, 2014 at 1:00 PM, Robert Stanton
>> <robert.l.stanton@gmail.com>wrote:
>> 
>>> Just out of curiosity, does anyone on this list consider the invasive
>>> potential of the plants they use?  I dedicate a significant portion of my
>>> time to removing autumn and Russian olive from landscapes here in the
>>> midwest, and it's always disheartening to hear others actively planting
>>> more of what needs to be removed to maintain diverse natural plant
>>> communities.
>>> 
>>> Robert
>>> __________________
>>> nafex mailing list
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>>> 
>> 
>> ------------------------------
>> 
>> Message: 3
>> Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2014 15:02:51 -0400
>> From: Mary Yett <yettmw@gmail.com>
>> To: nafex mailing list at ibiblio <nafex@lists.ibiblio.org>
>> Subject: Re: [nafex] Elaeagnus angustifolia
>> Message-ID:
>>      <CABoDHy7uryJ7fyiLB_74wyq9WEOoOSOBSnYJJv11eouG7kS=4Q@mail.gmail.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>> 
>> Whether or not a plant becomes invasive depends a lot on the local climate.
>> Here on Manitoulin Island, Ontario in a humid zone 4 with a maritime
>> climate ( cool summers), none of the Eleagnus spp have ever become a pest
>> sp. In hotter, southern Ontario, there are areas where Autumn Olive, for
>> example , has naturalized as a pioneer sp.
>> 
>> In humid climates,these pioneer spp typically establish only on disturbed
>> and/or infertile ground. Their role in the natural succession of
>> temperate,humid ecosystems is to fix nitrogen from the air, improve the
>> soil, provide a bit of shade for other, taller trees to germinate in and
>> then die out when the taller trees shade them out.
>> 
>> Our dominate agriculture system keeps succession at the ruderal stage
>> (early annual weeds, ie annual crops, and pioneer woody spp) by the use of
>> constant disturbance (plowing annually,mowing roadsides, etc). This creates
>> good habitat for pioneer spp, both native and introduced.If left alone in a
>> temperate humid climate, Eleagnus spp just do their work and then fade away
>> and do not have a negative impact on the native ecosystems.
>> 
>> I realize that in a dry climate, esp with poor soils, the picture can be
>> very different.
>> 
>> 
>> On Thu, Mar 27, 2014 at 1:45 PM, Deb Schneider <debs913@gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> I've thought that myself.  Except for the fact that the dairy goats like 
>>> to
>>> eat it, the stuff is an AWFUL pest plant that spreads horribly on our
>>> farm.  Berries are boring tasting too.
>>> 
>>> deb
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Thu, Mar 27, 2014 at 1:00 PM, Robert Stanton
>>> <robert.l.stanton@gmail.com>wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Just out of curiosity, does anyone on this list consider the invasive
>>>> potential of the plants they use?  I dedicate a significant portion of my
>>>> time to removing autumn and Russian olive from landscapes here in the
>>>> midwest, and it's always disheartening to hear others actively planting
>>>> more of what needs to be removed to maintain diverse natural plant
>>>> communities.
>>>> 
>>>> Robert
>>>> __________________
>>>> nafex mailing list
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>>>> 
>>> __________________
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>>> 
>> 
>> ------------------------------
>> 
>> Message: 4
>> Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2014 13:54:19 -0700
>> From: "Idell Weydemeyer" <iwgarden@earthlink.net>
>> To: "'nafex mailing list at ibiblio'" <nafex@lists.ibiblio.org>
>> Subject: Re: [nafex] Elaeagnus angustifolia
>> Message-ID: <003501cf49fe$b9ef6af0$2dce40d0$@net>
>> Content-Type: text/plain;    charset="us-ascii"
>> 
>> Some (many?) Elaeagnus are on the list of  invasive plants in many states. 
>> I
>> am in cooler Northern California climate with no rain for 5-8 months so I
>> have never once in 30 years had a seedling start. However, that does not
>> mean that they might get a start in a riparian area.
>> 
>> By the way, One Green World has an Eleagnus x ebbingei -- My one grafted
>> branch of that is yummie.-- if the grft was named correctly.
>> https://www.onegreenworld.com/product.php?id=1096&; . My plant just arrived
>> today.
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nafex-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org
>> [mailto:nafex-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Robert Stanton
>> Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 10:01 AM
>> To: nafex@lists.ibiblio.org
>> Subject: [nafex] Elaeagnus angustifolia
>> 
>> Just out of curiosity, does anyone on this list consider the invasive
>> potential of the plants they use?  I dedicate a significant portion of my
>> time to removing autumn and Russian olive from landscapes here in the
>> midwest, and it's always disheartening to hear others actively planting
>> more of what needs to be removed to maintain diverse natural plant
>> communities.
>> 
>> Robert
>> __________________
>> nafex mailing list
>> nafex@lists.ibiblio.org
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>> maintenance:
>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex
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>> site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex [searchstring]
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>> https://sites.google.com/site/nafexmailinglist
>> Avant Geared  http://www.avantgeared.com
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> ------------------------------
>> 
>> Message: 5
>> Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2014 17:28:45 -0400
>> From: Steven Covacci <filtertitle@gmail.com>
>> To: nafex mailing list at ibiblio <nafex@lists.ibiblio.org>
>> Cc: nafex mailing list at ibiblio <nafex@lists.ibiblio.org>
>> Subject: Re: [nafex] Elaeagnus angustifolia
>> Message-ID: <77E19EF7-413D-49AE-ACDE-278AE2E3BAFA@gmail.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain;    charset=us-ascii
>> 
>> Should Eleagnus x ebbingei taste better than Autumn-olive?
>> 
>> Thanks,
>> Steve
>> 
>> On Mar 27, 2014, at 4:54 PM, "Idell Weydemeyer" <iwgarden@earthlink.net> 
>> wrote:
>> 
>>> Eleagnus x ebbingei
>> 
>> ------------------------------
>> 
>> Message: 6
>> Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2014 19:06:29 -0700
>> From: "Idell Weydemeyer" <iwgarden@earthlink.net>
>> To: "'nafex mailing list at ibiblio'" <nafex@lists.ibiblio.org>
>> Subject: Re: [nafex] Elaeagnus angustifolia
>> Message-ID: <004801cf4a2a$55b87eb0$01297c10$@net>
>> Content-Type: text/plain;    charset="us-ascii"
>> 
>> The Elaeagnus I have has a very good flavor and is quite large.-- if it is
>> ebbingei. I will find out with my new plant.
>> 
>> I have an autumn olvie that is an evergreen one that has excellent flavored
>> berries. I also have 5 named varieties. Some autumn olives I have tasted 
>> are
>> so tart that they I just spit them out.
>> 
>> Idell Weydmeyer
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nafex-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org
>> [mailto:nafex-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Steven Covacci
>> Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 2:29 PM
>> To: nafex mailing list at ibiblio
>> Cc: nafex mailing list at ibiblio
>> Subject: Re: [nafex] Elaeagnus angustifolia
>> 
>> Should Eleagnus x ebbingei taste better than Autumn-olive?
>> 
>> Thanks,
>> Steve
>> 
>> On Mar 27, 2014, at 4:54 PM, "Idell Weydemeyer" <iwgarden@earthlink.net>
>> wrote:
>> 
>>> Eleagnus x ebbingei
>> __________________
>> nafex mailing list
>> nafex@lists.ibiblio.org
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>> maintenance:
>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex
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>> site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex [searchstring]
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>> Avant Geared  http://www.avantgeared.com
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> ------------------------------
>> 
>> Message: 7
>> Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2014 06:48:28 -0400
>> From: Elizabeth Hilborn <ehilborn@mebtel.net>
>> To: nafex mailing list at ibiblio <nafex@lists.ibiblio.org>
>> Subject: Re: [nafex] Elaeagnus angustifolia
>> Message-ID: <5335537C.60804@mebtel.net>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>> 
>> Mary, I do not think that humidity is the key variable.  I live in a
>> very humid zone 7. They are intrepid invaders here in both disturbed and
>> intact forest and grasslands, I manage them, but cannot eradicate them.
>> 
>> I would not plant one on purpose.
>> 
>> Betsy Hilborn
>> Zone 7a (again!), NC
>> 
>> On 3/27/2014 3:02 PM, Mary Yett wrote:
>>> Whether or not a plant becomes invasive depends a lot on the local 
>>> climate.
>>> Here on Manitoulin Island, Ontario in a humid zone 4 with a maritime
>>> climate ( cool summers), none of the Eleagnus spp have ever become a pest
>>> sp. In hotter, southern Ontario, there are areas where Autumn Olive, for
>>> example , has naturalized as a pioneer sp.
>>> 
>>> In humid climates,these pioneer spp typically establish only on disturbed
>>> and/or infertile ground. Their role in the natural succession of
>>> temperate,humid ecosystems is to fix nitrogen from the air, improve the
>>> soil, provide a bit of shade for other, taller trees to germinate in and
>>> then die out when the taller trees shade them out.
>>> 
>>> Our dominate agriculture system keeps succession at the ruderal stage
>>> (early annual weeds, ie annual crops, and pioneer woody spp) by the use of
>>> constant disturbance (plowing annually,mowing roadsides, etc). This 
>>> creates
>>> good habitat for pioneer spp, both native and introduced.If left alone in 
>>> a
>>> temperate humid climate, Eleagnus spp just do their work and then fade 
>>> away
>>> and do not have a negative impact on the native ecosystems.
>>> 
>>> I realize that in a dry climate, esp with poor soils, the picture can be
>>> very different.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Thu, Mar 27, 2014 at 1:00 PM, Robert Stanton
>>> <robert.l.stanton@gmail.com>wrote:
>>> 
>>>>> Just out of curiosity, does anyone on this list consider the invasive
>>>>> potential of the plants they use?  I dedicate a significant portion of 
>>>>> my
>>>>> time to removing autumn and Russian olive from landscapes here in the
>>>>> midwest, and it's always disheartening to hear others actively planting
>>>>> more of what needs to be removed to maintain diverse natural plant
>>>>> communities.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Robert
>>>>> __________________
>>>>> 
>> 
>> 
>> ------------------------------
>> 
>> Message: 8
>> Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2014 09:30:03 -0400
>> From: Steven Covacci <filtertitle@gmail.com>
>> To: nafex mailing list at ibiblio <nafex@lists.ibiblio.org>
>> Cc: nafex mailing list at ibiblio <nafex@lists.ibiblio.org>
>> Subject: Re: [nafex] Elaeagnus angustifolia
>> Message-ID: <424C37A2-465D-4C7B-A920-AF65044B1689@gmail.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain;    charset=us-ascii
>> 
>> Does Elaeagnus x ebbenei produce a fruit which is superior to that of a 
>> select variety (i.e. 'Ruby', etc.) of Autumn-olive?
>> 
>> Thanks,
>> Steve
>> 
>> On Mar 27, 2014, at 10:06 PM, "Idell Weydemeyer" <iwgarden@earthlink.net> 
>> wrote:
>> 
>>> The Elaeagnus I have has a very good flavor and is quite large.-- if it is
>>> ebbingei. I will find out with my new plant.
>>> 
>>> I have an autumn olvie that is an evergreen one that has excellent 
>>> flavored
>>> berries. I also have 5 named varieties. Some autumn olives I have tasted 
>>> are
>>> so tart that they I just spit them out.
>>> 
>>> Idell Weydmeyer
>>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nafex-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org
>>> [mailto:nafex-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Steven Covacci
>>> Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 2:29 PM
>>> To: nafex mailing list at ibiblio
>>> Cc: nafex mailing list at ibiblio
>>> Subject: Re: [nafex] Elaeagnus angustifolia
>>> 
>>> Should Eleagnus x ebbingei taste better than Autumn-olive?
>>> 
>>> Thanks,
>>> Steve
>>> 
>>> On Mar 27, 2014, at 4:54 PM, "Idell Weydemeyer" <iwgarden@earthlink.net>
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Eleagnus x ebbingei
>>> __________________
>>> nafex mailing list
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>>> __________________
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>>> Avant Geared  http://www.avantgeared.com
>> 
>> ------------------------------
>> 
>> Message: 9
>> Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2014 08:49:21 -0700
>> From: "Idell Weydemeyer" <iwgarden@earthlink.net>
>> To: "'nafex mailing list at ibiblio'" <nafex@lists.ibiblio.org>
>> Subject: Re: [nafex] Elaeagnus angustifolia
>> Message-ID: <001b01cf4a9d$496e25b0$dc4a7110$@net>
>> Content-Type: text/plain;    charset="us-ascii"
>> 
>> If the one  I have is E x ebbenei-- yes. But I do like them both,
>> particularly my evergreen autumn olive that is apparently not in any
>> catalog.
>> 
>> Idell
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nafex-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org
>> [mailto:nafex-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Steven Covacci
>> Sent: Friday, March 28, 2014 6:30 AM
>> To: nafex mailing list at ibiblio
>> Cc: nafex mailing list at ibiblio
>> Subject: Re: [nafex] Elaeagnus angustifolia
>> 
>> Does Elaeagnus x ebbenei produce a fruit which is superior to that of a
>> select variety (i.e. 'Ruby', etc.) of Autumn-olive?
>> 
>> Thanks,
>> Steve
>> 
>> On Mar 27, 2014, at 10:06 PM, "Idell Weydemeyer" <iwgarden@earthlink.net>
>> wrote:
>> 
>>> The Elaeagnus I have has a very good flavor and is quite large.-- if it is
>>> ebbingei. I will find out with my new plant.
>>> 
>>> I have an autumn olvie that is an evergreen one that has excellent
>> flavored
>>> berries. I also have 5 named varieties. Some autumn olives I have tasted
>> are
>>> so tart that they I just spit them out.
>>> 
>>> Idell Weydmeyer
>>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nafex-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org
>>> [mailto:nafex-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Steven Covacci
>>> Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 2:29 PM
>>> To: nafex mailing list at ibiblio
>>> Cc: nafex mailing list at ibiblio
>>> Subject: Re: [nafex] Elaeagnus angustifolia
>>> 
>>> Should Eleagnus x ebbingei taste better than Autumn-olive?
>>> 
>>> Thanks,
>>> Steve
>>> 
>>> On Mar 27, 2014, at 4:54 PM, "Idell Weydemeyer" <iwgarden@earthlink.net>
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Eleagnus x ebbingei
>>> __________________
>>> nafex mailing list
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>>> 
>>> __________________
>>> nafex mailing list
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>> maintenance:
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>>> Avant Geared  http://www.avantgeared.com
>> __________________
>> nafex mailing list
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>> Avant Geared  http://www.avantgeared.com
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> ------------------------------
>> 
>> Message: 10
>> Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2014 08:53:15 -0700
>> From: "Idell Weydemeyer" <iwgarden@earthlink.net>
>> To: "'nafex mailing list at ibiblio'" <nafex@lists.ibiblio.org>
>> Subject: Re: [nafex] Elaeagnus angustifolia
>> Message-ID: <001c01cf4a9d$d5043f60$7f0cbe20$@net>
>> Content-Type: text/plain;    charset="us-ascii"
>> 
>> -- I have read that Goumi is not nearly as invasive as autumn olive but do
>> not have direct experience with that since neither my autumn olive nor my
>> goumi has produced seedlings-- ever-- but as I said earlier-- birds could
>> spread it to a riparian zone --although I have seen none anywhere near here
>> --but then again, as far as I know very few grow it around here.
>> 
>> In areas that it is called invasive, it can be a huge problem, apparently.
>> 
>> 
>> Idell zone 9b
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nafex-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org
>> [mailto:nafex-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Elizabeth Hilborn
>> Sent: Friday, March 28, 2014 3:48 AM
>> To: nafex mailing list at ibiblio
>> Subject: Re: [nafex] Elaeagnus angustifolia
>> 
>> Mary, I do not think that humidity is the key variable.  I live in a
>> very humid zone 7. They are intrepid invaders here in both disturbed and
>> intact forest and grasslands, I manage them, but cannot eradicate them.
>> 
>> I would not plant one on purpose.
>> 
>> Betsy Hilborn
>> Zone 7a (again!), NC
>> 
>> On 3/27/2014 3:02 PM, Mary Yett wrote:
>>> Whether or not a plant becomes invasive depends a lot on the local
>> climate.
>>> Here on Manitoulin Island, Ontario in a humid zone 4 with a maritime
>>> climate ( cool summers), none of the Eleagnus spp have ever become a pest
>>> sp. In hotter, southern Ontario, there are areas where Autumn Olive, for
>>> example , has naturalized as a pioneer sp.
>>> 
>>> In humid climates,these pioneer spp typically establish only on disturbed
>>> and/or infertile ground. Their role in the natural succession of
>>> temperate,humid ecosystems is to fix nitrogen from the air, improve the
>>> soil, provide a bit of shade for other, taller trees to germinate in and
>>> then die out when the taller trees shade them out.
>>> 
>>> Our dominate agriculture system keeps succession at the ruderal stage
>>> (early annual weeds, ie annual crops, and pioneer woody spp) by the use of
>>> constant disturbance (plowing annually,mowing roadsides, etc). This
>> creates
>>> good habitat for pioneer spp, both native and introduced.If left alone in
>> a
>>> temperate humid climate, Eleagnus spp just do their work and then fade
>> away
>>> and do not have a negative impact on the native ecosystems.
>>> 
>>> I realize that in a dry climate, esp with poor soils, the picture can be
>>> very different.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Thu, Mar 27, 2014 at 1:00 PM, Robert Stanton
>>> <robert.l.stanton@gmail.com>wrote:
>>> 
>>>>> Just out of curiosity, does anyone on this list consider the invasive
>>>>> potential of the plants they use?  I dedicate a significant portion of
>> my
>>>>> time to removing autumn and Russian olive from landscapes here in the
>>>>> midwest, and it's always disheartening to hear others actively planting
>>>>> more of what needs to be removed to maintain diverse natural plant
>>>>> communities.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Robert
>>>>> __________________
>>>>> 
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>> End of nafex Digest, Vol 134, Issue 19
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