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  • From: Anton Callaway <marillen@earthlink.net>
  • To: North American Fruit Explorers <nafex@lists.ibiblio.org>
  • Subject: [NAFEX] apple rootstocks: Was Sad little apple tree (John McCuan)
  • Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 21:05:30 -0500 (GMT-05:00)

Jim,

I can certainly relate to the disease pressures in your area, having had an
orchard just north of Atlanta and now in North Carolina.

I was interested also in your comment on the fireblight resistance of Bud9.
I've planted a couple of dozen trees on this stock over the last 9 years or
so. I lost several in the nursery to fireblight. The blight did not
hesitate at the scion/stock boundary. Maybe the blight resistance is greater
in mature trees on this stock(?). Anyway, I've lost enough trees on this
stock due to fireblight that I avoid it when I have a choice. I'm also
trying several Geneva stocks to try to get better disease resistance in a
dwarfing stock.

Anton
North Carolina

-----Original Message-----
>From: Jim Freeman <jf@gctruck.com>
>Sent: Nov 10, 2009 2:55 PM
>To: nafex@lists.ibiblio.org
>Subject: Re: [NAFEX] Sad little apple tree (John McCuan)
>
>
>Hello John & Melinda,
>
>It is great to see a post from someone who lives so close! We have a
>small planting of 72 fruit trees at our home in Acworth, GA and a larger
>orchard on our farm in Chatsworth. It sounds like we have the same soil
>types as you and have planted most of the rootstocks mentioned for
>apples. I don't know where your trees were purchased, but most sold
>locally are on M111 rootstock. If you have a healthy tree growing beside
>the runt and have no sign of trauma, I doubt it is anything you did. In
>my experience, sometimes a tree just runts for no readily apparent
>reason. It is often cheaper to replace them than to try to fix them. I
>just dig them out and install a new tree. If you want to try to fix what
>you have or buy a superior local replacement, call Bill Ford at
>Johnson-Ford Nursery in Ellijay. He is very knowledgeable and has a wide
>selection of varieties well suited to our state.
>
>As for rootstocks, I have learned to avoid any of the sensitive dwarfs
>(M27, M9, M26, etc.) that are grown in other areas. We have too many
>disease issues (severe fireblight, crown rot, various rusts...) for any
>of the "high maintenance" roots. I just started my test plantings of the
>G11, G16 & G30 rootstocks this year; so it will take a little while
>until I can report on them. Based on you being happy with the other tree
>at 14', I would recommend the following roots based on my test plantings
>and your size preference:
>If you want a dwarf, then go with Bud 9. It has done very well in my
>plantings, needs support, is resistant to fireblight and will produce
>large fruit quickly.
>If you want a mid-size tree, go with EMLA 7. Most of the benefits of Bud
>9 and is self-supporting.
>Either way, you can't go wrong.
>
>PS - Sending a soil sample from the tree site out for testing via the
>county extension office is always helpful for pre-planting preparation.
>
>Good Luck!
>Jim @ Freedom Farms
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
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>[mailto:nafex-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of
>nafex-request@lists.ibiblio.org
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>Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Subject: rootstock suggestions for apples and pears
> (fuwa fuwa usagi)
> 2. Subject: rootstock suggestions for apples and pears (Pete Tallman)
> 3. Sad little apple tree (John McCuan)
> 4. Re: In Defense of Big Apple Trees (Claude Jolicoeur)
> 5. Apple Rootstocks (Ginda Fisher)
> 6. blue persimmon seeds wanted... (bmn@iglou.com)
>
>
>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Message: 1
>Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 14:14:05 -0800
>From: "fuwa fuwa usagi" <fuwafuwausagi@muchomail.com>
>Subject: [NAFEX] Subject: rootstock suggestions for apples and pears
>To: <nafex@lists.ibiblio.org>
>Message-ID: <20091109141405.A25083BE@resin11.mta.everyone.net>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>
>Subject: [NAFEX] rootstock suggestions for apples and pears:
>
>In your area for pears OHxF 333 and 282 are outstanding, a little
>tarnish perhaps over the fruit quality over quince with some varieties
>but I do not think it is worth quibbling about given all the issues with
>Quince. No staking needed for 333 and 282 and fireblight resistance and
>both can deal with clay thank you, it just keep the trees smaller.
>
>As for apple I use M27, M26, and M7. Obviously you need to stake M27
>and it is more suitable for espalier training than anything, and you can
>simply amend the soil in clay as it will never develop enough of a root
>system to trouble you with the native soil. M26 works though I like the
>smaller trees of M27. And M7 is simply to much a tree for most home
>growers unless they want to dry, make cider, or can, but it works well.
>
>the fluffy one
>
>
>
>
>
>_____________________________________________________________
>The Free Email with so much more!
>=====> http://www.MuchoMail.com <=====
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 2
>Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 17:47:50 -0700
>From: Pete Tallman <pete_tallman@hotmail.com>
>Subject: [NAFEX] Subject: rootstock suggestions for apples and pears
>To: nafex <nafex@lists.ibiblio.org>
>Message-ID: <SNT124-W174C1DBEF938DD3B3D808AE3AB0@phx.gbl>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
>
>Fluffy one suggests M26 apple rootstock, but this is usually regarded as
>too fireblight susceptible. Try Bud-9 or Mark, which have worked well
>for me here with amended heavy clay and fireblight pressure. There are
>also some Geneva rootstocks coming along ("in the pipeline") which were
>bred for fireblight resistance - check the Cummins Nursery catalog;
>maybe G-11 for now? For your area, I concur with M27 and M7 depending on
>what size tree you're looking for. (For me, M27 is a bit too weak or
>small here.) There are those who don't like Mark because of "root zone
>proliferation", but I'm reasonably happy with what I have.
>Pete TallmanLongmont, CO
>_________________________________________________________________
>Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft's powerful SPAM protection.
>http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141664/direct/01/
>http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141664/direct/01/
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>Message: 3
>Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 18:34:25 -0800 (PST)
>From: John McCuan <wawo@yahoo.com>
>Subject: [NAFEX] Sad little apple tree
>To: nafex@lists.ibiblio.org
>Message-ID: <667728.48786.qm@web31903.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
>
>We live a little northwest of Atlanta, so the soil is somewhat clayey
>and acidic.? I fertilized every year but missed on the lime a couple of
>years so the soil got rather acidic, but another apple 15 feet away is
>14 feet high.? I don't know what rootstock it's on except it's
>semi-dwarf.
>
>I haven't seen any vole damage on the bark, but something could be going
>on with the roots.
>
>I know if children are malnourished or stressed their growth can be
>stunted, even if they eat well when they're older, and I'm wondering if
>that might happen to apples, too.? I hope to graft a scion on rootstock
>this winter, but I was wondering if there was any hope for the tree, or
>if it's permanently stunted.
>
>Thanks.
>
>Melinda
>
>
>
>
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>------------------------------
>
>Message: 4
>Date: Mon, 09 Nov 2009 21:45:07 -0500
>From: Claude Jolicoeur <cjoli@gmc.ulaval.ca>
>Subject: Re: [NAFEX] In Defense of Big Apple Trees
>To: North American Fruit Explorers <nafex@lists.ibiblio.org>
>Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20091109214507.00db6040@pop.ulaval.ca>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
>I am with Alan concerning big apple trees. I have many full size
>Cortland trees and I think they are great. I don't think such trees may
>be as productive as modern intensive orchards, but the quality of the
>apples is much better although smaller. For cider, standard trees in my
>experience produce apples with greater sugar concentration and better
>flavor. Unless you grow apples to earn a living or are extremely limited
>in space, standard trees are the best way to go - and even more so in
>colder climate and in areas with a lot of snow.
>
>Claude Jolicoeur
>Quebec
>
>A 06:57 09.11.08 -0500, vous avez ?crit :
>>>>>
>
>
>Fluffy???s warning about the grand results of growing a tree on a
>Northern Spy rootstock has inspired me to counter with an endorsement of
>full sized apple trees.
>
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 5
>Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 23:38:07 -0500
>From: Ginda Fisher <list@ginda.us>
>Subject: [NAFEX] Apple Rootstocks
>To: NAFEX Fruit Explorers <nafex@lists.ibiblio.org>
>Message-ID: <233E7C14-41A5-4117-9FAE-FF833841FCF5@ginda.us>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
>Here's something I wrote up for Pomona following the one NAFEX meeting I
>attended. Professor Cummins spoke about the apple rootstocks Cornel has
>been working on, and it mostly deals with those. But it has some
>interesting general information. Oh, and when I was planting some
>stuff, I spoke to Professor Cummins about rootstocks for my backyard, in
>eastern MA, zone 6. Of the traditional semi-dwarf rootstocks (not
>needing support) he recommended M7. It's an old reliable workhorse.
>It's not the most fireblight resistant, nor the most hardy, nor the
>most. . . . but it's pretty good in most ways.
>
>Ginda
>
>Begin forwarded message:
>>
>> Jim Cummins on Newer Apple Rootstocks
>>
>> Professor Cummins spoke in the first session. Unfortunately, we
>> started a bit late, and he wasn't able to get to pear rootstocks, but
>> he did talk at length about apple rootstocks - where they were in his
>> childhood, and where they have come today.
>>
>> Professor Cummins grew up on an old apple orchard with seedling
>> rootstock. The trees were spaced on 40'x40' centers, for 27 trees per
>
>> acre, and the canopy was full, with the trees just meeting overhead.
>> This was the standard orchard until fairly recently. In contrast,
>> modern orchards on dwarfing rootstock can have hundreds of trees per
>> acre, up to 1900 (?? this sounds too high, but it's what I wrote
>> down) with the smallest trellised trees. Today, most new apples
>> trees are planted on M9, or occasionally M7 for intermediate sized
>> trees. Very little M26 is planted due to its susceptibility to
>> fireblight.
>>
>> These are relatively old rootstocks. The Malling and MM series of
>> rootstocks became commercially available in the early 1900's, with
>> newer rootstocks such as MM106 coming on line in the late 1960's and
>> dwarfing rootstocks in general becoming widely used by the 1970s.
>> This was the result of a process started back in 1922 when Lord Dowd
>> started a breeding program in England. Shortly thereafter Dr.
>> Budagovsky started a similar program south of Russia. Several other
>> programs have since been started (in Canada, the US and Europe) and
>> the program started by Dr. Budagovsky has moved to Poland.
>>
>> Most of these programs have looked primarily at horticultural aspects,
>
>> especially including how easy they are to root. This has often been
>> the first criteria used to cull seedlings. In 1968, the Geneva
>> program decided to try something new - they decided to breed first for
>
>> resistance to the major diseases of rootstocks, and secondarily for
>> horticultural criteria. One side advantage of this is that their
>> trees, being somewhat harder to root, are far less susceptible to burr
>
>> knots. This can be a problem with several of the M and MM series
>> (esp. MM111) and the Russia series.
>>
>> The major pests of apple rootstocks are collar rot and fireblight.
>> In order to find resistant plants, the Geneva program would plant out
>> thousands of seedlings from selected crosses. When the baby trees
>> were 3" tall, they infected them with crown rot. This would kill
>> between 75% and 100% of the plants. when the remaining plants reached
>
>> 1 foot in hight, they injected them with fireblight bacteria. This
>> would again kill off between 75% and 100% of the plants. From 100,000
>
>> seedlings evaluated, only about 500 survived this treatment. These
>> ones were reinnoculated and tested for nursery performance, and the
>> most promising of these will be released as the Geneva series of
>> rootstocks.
>>
>> It takes a long time to fully evaluate a rootstock, and Dr. Cummins
>> wishes for another 20 years, however, they are beginning to release
>> their roots. Some of them will eventually come up lacking, but he is
>> certain that some will be winners.
>>
>> Three rootstocks have currently been released, G30, G16, and G11.
>> G30 might replace M7 but it has limitations. It yields early and
>> heavy bearing (20-50% better than M7 in first ten years) and it is
>> very cold-hardy (at least to -30F, probably to -35 or more) but it
>> produces a very brittle graft union, especially with trees that tend
>> towards brittleness, such as Gala and possibly Honeycrisp. Trees on
>> G30 should have permanent support (an "artificial trunk") to 8'.
>> Another problem with the rootstock is that it is a very poor nursery
>> subject. In particular, the baby trees have short internodes and are
>> very thorny. These thorns need to be removed if the plant is to be
>> grafted. They can be removed early on by hand ("thumbing them
>> off") somewhat later with sheers, or after the plants have been dug.
>> The third is easiest, but it results in lots of open wounds on the
>> nursery plants, and they tend to dry out and die.
>>
>> G16 might compete with M26. It has no thorns or burrknots, and
>> doesn't sucker at all - it yields a perfectly smooth trunk. It is
>> more productive than M9, winter hardy, with heat and drought tolerance
>
>> similar to M7. Curiously, it gets this tolerance through a totally
>> different mechanism than M7. M7 has a vertical root system, and the
>> roots often find water by heading down. G16 has very heavy,
>> aggressive roots that go everywhere. It appears to be adequately
>> winter hardy but has not yet been subjected to a test winter. The
>> problem with this otherwise very exciting rootstock is that it is very
>
>> susceptible to common latent viruses, including applestem grooving
>> virus. It is critical that it only be grafted to clean scion wood, or
>
>> the tree will die. Because apple viruses are not transmitted sexually
>
>> (e.g. by pollinators) or by leaf-eating insects, the tree is unlikely
>> to be naturally infected in the field. (Nematodes do transmit some
>> apple viruses, such as tomato ringspot, but this tree is not
>> susceptible to those.) On the other hand, it could be infected by
>> pruning equipment - this is a tree to treat carefully.
>>
>> There was an interesting side discussion about why G16 is dwarfing
>> given the high vigour of its roots. Dwarfing is not well understood,
>> and the "weaker roots" theory is not backed by any solid evidence.
>> Dr. Cummins and others suggested two possible mechanisms for why this
>> tree might be dwarfing. The first is that "wider pipes" in the tree's
>
>> plumbing might limit the hight to which nutrients flow. Research done
>
>> in Israel has shown that M9 has very large pipes and they appear to
>> reduce the capillary action that helps bring sap up the tree. The
>> second theory is that precocity is itself dwarfing - once a tree has
>> started to fruit (even if you remove the young fruits) it simply puts
>> less energy into growing trunk and branches.
>>
>> G11 has just been released this year. It is in the same size class as
>
>> G16 and M26. It is not as fireblight resistant as the other two, but
>> it is probably good enough for most uses (comparable to M7) and has
>> adequate resistance to phytopthera. There are (so far) no known virus
>
>> problems with this rootstock. It is also an early and heavy bearing
>> variety, and is also a good nursery subject.
>>
>> At this point Dr. Cummins ran out of time, and quickly ran through a
>> couple of "things to come" from the Cornell-Geneva program, and
>> answered some questions about the other new rootstock series.
>>
>> CG3041 is more dwarfing than M9, and much less brittle. CG5935 is a
>> bit more vigorous than M26. Both are still undergoing testing (along
>> with G5202, described in his handout.) According to the handout,
>> CG5202 is also highly resistant to wooly apple aphid, and has been
>> introduced in New Zealand, where WAA is a major pest.
>>
>> Bud9 (or red leafed paradise) is similar to M9 but more cold hardy,
>> with a smooth shank. It has better fireblight tolerance than M9.
>> It was introduced in Russia in 1948 and is now widely available in
>> the US. Bud118 produces a tree about 90% as large as standard.
>> Like M111, it seems to delay the onset of fruiting, but once it starts
>
>> it is very efficient and very well rooted. He believes it would be
>> good under Honeycrisp.
>>
>> He has had trouble propagating the Polish series (coincidentally the
>> "P" rootstocks, although the "P" stands for the Polish word for
>> rootstock, not for Poland.) and had little to say about it. He is
>> skeptical of the German supporter series, which he doesn't think has
>> been adequately tested outside of Germany. He feels that program is
>> under pressure to release stuff. He has found this series to be
>> susceptible to fireblight. The least susceptible to fireblight of the
>
>> lot (Supporter 4) is still somewhat susceptible, and is also
>> susceptible to collar rot like M9 and seemed to yield poor cropping in
>
>> his tests. Some trees died from apple aphid.
>>
>> At this point we really ran out of time for the first session.
>>
>
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>
>Message: 6
>Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 10:56:38 -0500 (EST)
>From: bmn@iglou.com
>Subject: [NAFEX] blue persimmon seeds wanted...
>To: nafex@lists.ibiblio.org
>Message-ID: <52003.24.182.138.146.1257868598.iglou@webmail.iglou.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1
>
>Howdy folks. I have a reader who wants seeds from one or more of the
>blue Diospyros virginiana persimmon varieties for a curiosity. Would
>anyone have some they could send him? I'm willing to pay the postage.
>
>
>
>------------------------------
>
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  • [NAFEX] apple rootstocks: Was Sad little apple tree (John McCuan), Anton Callaway, 11/11/2009

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