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  • From: John S <swim_at_svc@yahoo.com>
  • To: North American Fruit Explorers <nafex@lists.ibiblio.org>
  • Subject: Re: [NAFEX] trailing berries
  • Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 20:36:14 -0700 (PDT)

Kevin, Trailing means growing along/across the ground.  Recumbent means resting on something.  A plant that first grows upward, then falls over, is recumbent when it has fallen over onto the ground.

Trailing is a descriptor of dew berries, which grow along the ground.  Another example would be loganberry, a hybrid.  I once made the mistake of trying to trellis loganberries in an upward manner, which was ill-fated because of the brittle canes and basically trailing nature of the plant.  Many of the canes I tried to trellis became recumbent, when they broke or fell down.

Part of the problem here may be that some of the participants in this discussion just have not seen a good example of a trailing bramble.

Black raspberries, such as the wild kind, Cumberland or Bristol, the black raspberries of my experience, grow upward.  If the cane becomes long enough, it will arch over and the tip will reach the ground, tip rooting perhaps.  If the whole cane falls over (from the stem root), such that it is lying on the ground, then you could label that cane as recumbent but that would not be an accurate description of its growth habit.  The plant "spreads" in this manner (of tip rooting), but that is not the same as "trailing" where the predominant growth pattern is directed across the ground, not upward.

Dew berries, at least the ones growing wild around here, send a main "cane" along the ground, rooting at various points.  Off of this main cane will be shorter, minor canes, often bearing fruit, that only get a few inches high and are upright.  However, the predominant growth pattern is trailing, as the plant grows across the ground.

Perhaps it would be helpful to think of walking onions.  The leaves grow upward, with a new plant starting at the top of the leaf.  Eventually, the leaf becomes top heavy and falls over, allowing the new plant at the tip to take root at some distance from the original plant.  As such, over time, the plant "walks" across the ground establishing new growth.  However, this is not "trailing" or "recumbent".  The leaf becomes recombent when it falls over, but that is not how it grows - it grows upright.

I find this whole discussion somewhat frustrating.  It started off by my trying to clarify a misuse of "blackberry" just for the sake of accuracy and has ended up completely confusing the use of the term "trailing".  The likely result of *this* post will be a couple of people telling me that they trellis loganberries upright with significant success and arguing that loganberries are trailing, recumbent, upright, vining, prostrate, strangling or some other opinion depending on the contrarian nature of the poster.  I am going to bow out of this discussion and spend my time re-reading the threads regarding the impending heat death of the multiverse, some trillion-trillion years in the future as I find that discussion less disfficult and potentially more accurate.

Ernst, I really am looking forward to the pics of your trailing black raspberries when they become available. Melissa, it sounds like you <may> be describing dew berries for the low growing ones you describe.

Thanks

John





--- On Thu, 4/16/09, Kevin Moore <aleguy33@yahoo.com> wrote:

From: Kevin Moore <aleguy33@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [NAFEX] trailing berries
To: "North American Fruit Explorers" <nafex@lists.ibiblio.org>
Date: Thursday, April 16, 2009, 7:26 PM

To me a trailing plant grows up, then over in an arch. Recumbent grows essentially sideways, and down if there is a chance for it to do so.(Raised planter, cliff edge, etc.) I may be confused about the definitions, but everything I've read describes trailing canes as growing in an arch, often rooting at the tip. Most people I know prune their blackberries two or three times to keep them short and provide lots of fruit that is easy to get at.
While there are supposed to be some raspberries hardy here, I've never seen anyone growing anything but local native blackberries.

kevin z9


From: Ernest Plutko <ernestplutko@wiktel.com>
To: nafex@lists.ibiblio.org
Sent: Thursday, April 16, 2009 5:36:24 PM
Subject: Re: [NAFEX] trailing berries

Could be.  I'm not at all inflexible.  What is your definitions of
recumbent and trailing.  I did originally call my black raspberries
recumbent when I talked to people here.

---- Original Message ----
From: aleguy33@yahoo.com
To: nafex@lists.ibiblio.org
Subject: Re: [NAFEX] trailing berries
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 12:24:48 -0700 (PDT)

>While I have never seen a Rubus grow as you describe, I would
>consider that a recumbant plant rather than a trailing one.
>
>
>
>
>________________________________
>From: Melissa Kacalanos <mijwiz@yahoo.com>
>To: North American Fruit Explorers <nafex@lists.ibiblio.org>
>Sent: Thursday, April 16, 2009 9:22:36 AM
>Subject: Re: [NAFEX] trailing berries
>
>
>I don't know what y'all are calling trailing, but there are some
>blackberries (not raspberries) growing wild here in central NY that
>have a growth habit almost like slightly taller strawberries. They're
>maybe a foot tall, and grow in an ankle-tripping mat. Now that's what
>I call trailing. They're sour and not particularly good, but then
>again they're growing in shade, so maybe they're not at their best.
>
>I thought that for black raspberries, canes growing up, over, and
>down, and rooting at the tips, was just the normal way they grow.
>
>Melissa
>zone 5
>
>
>     


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