North American Fruit Explorers mailing list at ibiblio

[Betty Mayfield <bmayfield@opusnet.com>]

It seems to me I heard once that the clear, insipid bargain "apple
juice" sold in supermarkets is made from peelings, cores, and
trimmings of apples, such as are left over from manufacturing frozen
apple pies. That might be the "apples or parts thereof" from
your New York definition, Rivka.

Betty Mayfield
northwest Oregon

At 11:26 AM 8/14/2008, you wrote:

> On Aug 14, 2008, at 1:03 PM,
> jas39a@earthlink.net wrote: 
>
> > There is no such thing as
> > "unfermented cider".  Cider, by definition, is fermented,
> > whether in the US, or anywhere else.  If you refer to any
> > unfermented apple juice as "cider", you are speaking
> > incorrectly.

Eddie Earles

Fermented cider around here is hard cider. People referring just to "apple cider" almost always mean unfermented cider, sometimes known as "sweet cider".

Sweet -- unfermented -- cider is sold labeled as cider, even by quite large operations. Labeling in New York State is controlled by the state Agriculture and Markets department. Their definition of cider (from http://public.leginfo.state.ny.us/menugetf.cgi?COMMONQUERY=LAWS ) is as follows:

         "Apple cider" or words of similar import  means  a  product  made
         exclusively  from  the  expressed,  unfermented juice of fresh apples or
        parts thereof.

So in New York State, at least, it's you who are incorrect. You may be incorrect in the United States in general, though it may of course vary by locality. From my American Heritage dictionary:

         "cider: The juice pressed from apples, or, formerly, from other fruits,
        used to produce vinegar or as a beverage. The unfermented drink is called
        sweet cider, and the fermented drink hard cider."

Now to be fair, my Shorter Oxford English Dictionary does say:
        " A beverage made from the juice of apples expressed and fermented."

so that you may be correct in England, if this is still the ordinary usage there.

(Note: the dictionaries are both fairly old, the Oxford quite old. The New York State definition is taken from their current website.)

What I have seen sold as apple juice has differed from apple cider in that a) the apple joice is filtered, or more filtered than the cider, and is clearer; b) that the apple juice is pasteurized, whereas cider until recently usually wasn't, though the law in New York now requires pasteurizing cider; c) and that the flavor is very different, apple juice being generally sweeter and, to my taste at least, insipid. I don't know whether there is any agreed-upon definition of the difference. I can't find anything in the New York law on it, anyway, at least not on a short search.

--Rivka
Finger Lakes NY; zone 5 mostly
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