North American Fruit Explorers mailing list at ibiblio

["victoria l. caron" <vicaron@gis.net>]

Has anyone suggested Rosa Rugosa? Those caned have got some of the most 
intimidating thorns in any non woody shrub, they are not terribly
fussy about soils or hardiness and the rose hips are a bonus, 
................vic NH zone 3

"R. Keith Etheridge" wrote:

> If you plant multi-flora rose it will generally proliferate throughout your
> pasture and is dificult to controll.
> Prior to the fifties osage orange was a common living fence through central
> Illinois and was effective but required maintanance so was largely removed,
> although I still have a quarter mile.Osage orange is somewhat a weed in
> pastures but is easier controlled.As a vet in the fifties ,it wasn't that
> unusual to have in the fall a cow that swallowed a hedge ball whole,stuck in
> the esophagus that required being pushed into the rumen with a big diameter
> stomach tube.If any one needs seeds, I could probably  find some unless the
> ssquirels have ate them all.As far as thorny trees as a deterant nothing
> beats honey locust.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <nafex@yahoogroups.com>
> To: <nafex@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Friday, April 20, 2001 2:06 AM
> Subject: [nafex] Digest Number 701
>
> There are 20 messages in this issue.
>
> Topics in this digest:
>
>       1. Quince Report
>            From: Thomas Olenio <tolenio@sentex.net>
>       2. Re: Poor Man's Fertilizer
>            From: Lucky Pittman <Lucky.Pittman@murraystate.edu>
>       3. Re: Quince Report
>            From: "Lon J. Rombough" <lonrom@hevanet.com>
>       4. After two nights was (Re: algae)
>            From: "Christopher Mauchline" <mauch1@aol.com>
>       5. Old Saying
>            From: "Gordon Nofs" <gc_nofs@hotmail.com>
>       6. RE: Freeze damage to apples
>            From: Gene Spears <Spears@LMC.edu>
>       7. Natural fencing Suggestions
>            From: Thomas Olenio <tolenio@sentex.net>
>       8. RE: Natural fencing Suggestions
>            From: "Raby, Brian {20-4~Indianapolis}" <BRIAN.RABY@ROCHE.COM>
>       9. RE: Natural fencing Suggestions
>            From: Tom Volkening <volkenin@mail.lib.msu.edu>
>      10. RE: Natural fencing Suggestions
>            From: Tom Volkening <volkenin@mail.lib.msu.edu>
>      11. Re: Natural fencing Suggestions
>            From: "Christopher Mauchline" <mauch1@aol.com>
>      12. Re: Natural fencing Suggestions
>            From: hector black <hblack@TWLakes.Net>
>      13. natural fencing
>            From: "Mark Garrison" <pawpaw1@home.com>
>      14. Re: Natural fencing Suggestions
>            From: "kevin poland" <kvpoland@midmaine.com>
>      15. Re: Natural fencing Suggestions
>            From: "Gordon Nofs" <gc_nofs@hotmail.com>
>      16. Re: Natural fence, Homo ATaVistica
>            From: jhecksel@voyager.net
>      17. Re: Natural fencing Suggestions
>            From: Joe Boles <jobo@istar.ca>
>      18. Re: Natural fencing Suggestions
>            From: "Steve Shambeda" <sshambeda@paonline.com>
>      19. scions and rootstock
>            From: "carolyn wood" <natvwine@cut.net>
>      20. RE: Natural fencing Suggestions
>            From: rick valley <bamboogrove@cmug.com>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 1
>    Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 09:16:02 -0400 (EDT)
>    From: Thomas Olenio <tolenio@sentex.net>
> Subject: Quince Report
>
> Hi All,
>
> This report is for Lon, but thought I would share it.
>
> Of the 36 nonastrigent quince seeds;
>
>    *    24 have sprouted and now have true leaves
>
>    *    10 have sprouted and have seed leaves
>
>    *     2 are still in the fridge, refusing to
>          break dormancy
>
> I kept the seeds in the fridge with a small amount of vermiculite, and had
> rinsed the seeds with Wilson, Fruit Tree Spray (really just needed the
> Furbam, 2ml to a cup of water).  The seeds were kept in a glass jar,
> barely damp.  After 60 days, the first 24 broke dormancy and 10 days after
> that the remaining 10 broke.  I hold little hope for the last 2 as they
> appear inferior to the other seeds.
>
> All seeds were treated with 1/8th teaspoon of myco fungi when I put them
> into soil.  So far all the seedlings look great.
>
> Did you (Lon) mention how to feed these seedlings?  The myco fungi do not
> like man made fertilizer, and I cannot get organic plant food locally
> (unless I drive into Kitchener).  All I have access to is manure, and bone
> meal, but I am unsure how to use these on bottom watered seedlings in the
> basement, under lights.  Usually I use man made fertilizer)
>
> Believe it or not, I live in an agricultural area (commercial) and
> organics are considered a "quaint notion", but I have access to pig and
> cow manure, but unsure how to use it inside the house.  When bringing
> manure into indoor conditions should it be sterilized on the BBQ?  How?
> What is the best mix for manure tea used in watering seedlings indoors?
>
> Thanks,
> Tom
>
> --
> Thomas Olenio
> Ontario, Hardiness Zone 6a
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 2
>    Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 08:27:58 -0500
>    From: Lucky Pittman <Lucky.Pittman@murraystate.edu>
> Subject: Re: Poor Man's Fertilizer
>
> At 07:54 PM 04/18/2001 -0400, Joe Hecksel wrote:
> >In the frozen North, early spring N availability due to decaying organic
> >material is limited by soil temperature.  Most soil is not biologically
> >very active at temperatures below 50F (about 10C).  There is just not
> >that much N being freed up from decaying organic sources.  This 50F/10C
> >number is a very interesting number.  That is the soil temperature that
> >is associated with the start of corn/maize germination, lamb survival
> >(per Joe Rook) and the air temp associated with accumulation of degree
> >days for fruit trees.  In my neck of the woods, that occurs between
> >April 15 and May 1.
>
> Thanks, Joe.
> Having grown up in the Deep South, where I can't recall more than a couple
> of snows deeper than 2" in my first 30 years down there (and none persisted
> more than a couple of days), we didn't get much of that "Poor man's
> fertilizer".  Even up here in the frigid northland(southern west-central
> KY! LOL) snows are not too frequent, heavy, or persistent.
>
> The row-crop farmers have been planting corn, here, for better than a
> month. I didn't notice how much, if any, damage the frosts/freezes of the
> past two nights did to the corn I pass on the way to work - some of it's
> close to a foot tall.
> However, my hardy kiwis, raspberries, cucumbertree magnolias and newly
> leafing oaks are all sporting wilted black foliage this morning.
>
> Lucky Pittman
> USDA Zone 6
> Hopkinsville, KY
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 3
>    Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 06:58:57 -0700
>    From: "Lon J. Rombough" <lonrom@hevanet.com>
> Subject: Re: Quince Report
>
> Sounds like you are doing fine, Tom.  As to fertilizer, you could always use
> manure tea - just add water to a bucket of manure so the material is covered
> at least three or more inches (above the top of the manure).  Let it steep
> overnight.  If you think the resulting liquid is strong, dilute it at least
> 50-50 with water.
> -Lon
> Grapes, writing, consulting, more, plus word on my grape book at
> http://www.hevanet.com/lonrom
>
> Join the Garden Writers List
> To subscribe, send a blank message to: Gardenwriters-subscribe@topica.com
> List Info:  http://www.topica.com/lists/Gardenwriters
>
> ----------
> >From: Thomas Olenio <tolenio@sentex.net>
> >To: nafex@yahoogroups.com
> >Subject: [nafex] Quince Report
> >Date: Thu, Apr 19, 2001, 6:16 AM
> >
>
> >Hi All,
> >
> >This report is for Lon, but thought I would share it.
> >
> >Of the 36 nonastrigent quince seeds;
> >
> >   *    24 have sprouted and now have true leaves
> >
> >   *    10 have sprouted and have seed leaves
> >
> >   *     2 are still in the fridge, refusing to
> >         break dormancy
> >
> >I kept the seeds in the fridge with a small amount of vermiculite, and had
> >rinsed the seeds with Wilson, Fruit Tree Spray (really just needed the
> >Furbam, 2ml to a cup of water).  The seeds were kept in a glass jar,
> >barely damp.  After 60 days, the first 24 broke dormancy and 10 days after
> >that the remaining 10 broke.  I hold little hope for the last 2 as they
> >appear inferior to the other seeds.
> >
> >All seeds were treated with 1/8th teaspoon of myco fungi when I put them
> >into soil.  So far all the seedlings look great.
> >
> >Did you (Lon) mention how to feed these seedlings?  The myco fungi do not
> >like man made fertilizer, and I cannot get organic plant food locally
> >(unless I drive into Kitchener).  All I have access to is manure, and bone
> >meal, but I am unsure how to use these on bottom watered seedlings in the
> >basement, under lights.  Usually I use man made fertilizer)
> >
> >Believe it or not, I live in an agricultural area (commercial) and
> >organics are considered a "quaint notion", but I have access to pig and
> >cow manure, but unsure how to use it inside the house.  When bringing
> >manure into indoor conditions should it be sterilized on the BBQ?  How?
> >What is the best mix for manure tea used in watering seedlings indoors?
> >
> >Thanks,
> >Tom
> >
> >--
> >Thomas Olenio
> >Ontario, Hardiness Zone 6a
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 4
>    Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 14:39:42 -0000
>    From: "Christopher Mauchline" <mauch1@aol.com>
> Subject: After two nights was (Re: algae)
>
> > Chris, I'll be out putting buckets of water out too--apricot/plum
> hybrids
> > in particular.  Hope the forecasters are wrong.
>
> This time around the forecasters were dead on.
> First night: snow, temps at 32 degrees.
> Last night: temps down to 27 degrees.
>
> Last night had sprinklers on Japanese Plums, miniature lights and
> some towels on apricot, covered 6 of the 12 blueberries with jugs
> under the covers and covered 6 ornamental plantings.  The other six
> blueberries really need one more year of not cropping, so I thought I
> let nature handle it :-)  I'm not sure how things will turn out yet,
> but when I took off the coverings before I left for work things
> didn't look too bad.  The jugs of water hadn't frozen, so we'll see.
>
> What apricot/plum hybrids do you have?
>
> Chris Mauchline
> SE PA, zone 6
>
> --- In nafex@y..., "sbrenman@n..." <sbrenman@n...> wrote:
> > I've been skimming heavy algae blooms off of the farm pond, letting
> it dry
> > out on the bank and then applying it around  fruit trees.  ( the
> algae is
> > probably so abundant due to fertillizer runoff from the neighboring
> > farm.)   I wonder what kind of analysis algae has for NPK etc.
> >
> > Chris, I'll be out putting buckets of water out too--apricot/plum
> hybrids
> > in particular.  Hope the forecasters are wrong.
> >
> > Scott
> >
> >
> > NetZero Platinum
> > No Banner Ads and Unlimited Access
> > Sign Up Today - Only $9.95 per month!
> > http://www.netzero.net
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 5
>    Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 13:05:35 -0400
>    From: "Gordon Nofs" <gc_nofs@hotmail.com>
> Subject: Old Saying
>
> I thought I would question "Farmer's Almanac" people and this is their
> reply.
>       Gordon
> ************************************************
> ----Original Message Follows----
> From: pgeiger@geiger.com
> To: "Gordon C. Nofs"
> Subject: Re: Old Saying
>
> This is an old, old saying. My Dad had a friend who helped with the almanac
> for many years. Ken is now 98 years old. The saying has to do with snow
> (bigger flakes) drawing nutrients from the atmosphere and then
> "fertilizing" gardens. I have read that this is not true. I like the
> saying..... Since it happens in the spring and gardens grow soon
> thereafter, I'll say it is accurate. Make it easier to tolerate those late
> storms.
> ******************************************************************
>
>                      "Gordon C. Nofs"                                   To:
>     questions@farmersalmanac.com      Subject: Old Saying
>
>                      "Yup-Poor man's fertilizer"
>    Does anyone know where this comes from and what it means?
> Gordon C. Nofs
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 6
>    Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 14:20:57 -0400
>    From: Gene Spears <Spears@LMC.edu>
> Subject: RE: Freeze damage to apples
>
> This last cold snap made me glad fruit growing is only a hobby & not
> a livelihood!  Three days ago I had plum & peach trees covered with blossems
> (some for the 1st time) and swarming with bees.  Today, drooping, brown,
> gooey masses cover the limbs.  One bad 48 hour period can undo one or two
> years worth of waiting.....
> On to my question.  Up here (high elevation WNC), the apple trees
> had bud clusters & rosettes of pale green leaves around the buds.  The
> leaves are obviously dead, but the buds still look OK.  Are the buds likely
> to open?  If flowering occurs, will enough new leaves come out soon enough
> to support the young fruit?
>
> thanks,
>
> gene
> spears@lmc.edu
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 7
>    Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 15:00:40 -0400 (EDT)
>    From: Thomas Olenio <tolenio@sentex.net>
> Subject: Natural fencing Suggestions
>
> Hello All,
>
> I would like some "living fence" ideas, to keep out unwanted ATV's, ATC's
> and dirt bikes.
>
> The gap is about 50' wide, under a bridge, running east west, so there is
> plenty of sun except under the bridge.
>
> People with no respect for property cut the fence under the bridge
> regardless of there being cattle in the field, to get there fill of fun on
> their machines in the pasture, destroying the grass the cattle feed on,
> and presenting a legal injury problem.
>
> At first I liked poison ivy and those sorts of things, but that may be too
> cruel for even these people.
>
> Any suggestions on a very cruel, thornded, fast growing plant/shrub/cane
> that will (over time) fill the gap 50' on the south side, and grow under
> the bridge?
>
> I still like the poison ivy, poison oak, and poison sumac approach, but
> part of me says not to do it.  But i am sure there is no law against
> planting such things on your own property. (evil grin)
>
> Under the bridge is also a haven for kids doing drugs, and I want to kill
> that idea too.  There must be some good choices to make that a nasty place
> to pass through, or be in.
>
> Even thought of keeping a fresh dead skunk under there.
>
> Hardiness zone 6a, southwest Ontario, spring flooding, damp/dry all
> summer, full south sun, shaded under bridge structure.
>
> Cuttings appreciated!  (of nasty thorned plants [smile])  Father inlaw is
> getting tired of replacing the fence and chasing cattle at age 75.
> Thought I could help with a living fence to protect the strands of barbed
> wire that cover the gap and run over the water, keeping the cattle in and
> forming a river gate.
>
> Thanks,
> Tom
>
> --
> Thomas Olenio
> Ontario, Hardiness Zone 6a
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 8
>    Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 15:02:58 -0400
>    From: "Raby, Brian {20-4~Indianapolis}" <BRIAN.RABY@ROCHE.COM>
> Subject: RE: Natural fencing Suggestions
>
> Tom,
>
> Here's an article I found about a hedgeapple or Osage Orange:
>
> Before the invention of barbed wire in the 1880's, many thousands of miles
> of hedge were constructed by planting young Osage Orange trees closely
> together in a line.   The saplings were aggressively pruned to promote bushy
> growth.  "Horse high, bull strong and hog tight."   Those were the criteria
> for a good hedge made with Osage Orange.  Tall enough that a horse would not
> jump it, stout enough that a bull would not push through it and woven so
> tightly that even a hog could not find its way through!  After barbed wire
> made hedge fences obsolete, the trees still found use as a source of
> unbeatable fence posts.  The wood is strong and so dense that it will
> neither rot nor succumb to the attacks of termites or other insects for
> decades.  The trees also found use as an effective component of windbreaks
> and shelterbelts.   They are a rather thorny plant, if I'm not mistaken.
>
> Another tree to consider is the Hawthorn.  I have "stuck" myself with these
> several times and it does not tickle.  Very long, needle sharp thorns on
> these.
>
> Brian
> Sheridan, IN
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Thomas Olenio [mailto:tolenio@sentex.net]
> Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2001 2:01 PM
> To: nafex@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [nafex] Natural fencing Suggestions
>
> Hello All,
>
> I would like some "living fence" ideas, to keep out unwanted ATV's, ATC's
> and dirt bikes.
>
> The gap is about 50' wide, under a bridge, running east west, so there is
> plenty of sun except under the bridge.
>
> People with no respect for property cut the fence under the bridge
> regardless of there being cattle in the field, to get there fill of fun on
> their machines in the pasture, destroying the grass the cattle feed on,
> and presenting a legal injury problem.
>
> At first I liked poison ivy and those sorts of things, but that may be too
> cruel for even these people.
>
> Any suggestions on a very cruel, thornded, fast growing plant/shrub/cane
> that will (over time) fill the gap 50' on the south side, and grow under
> the bridge?
>
> I still like the poison ivy, poison oak, and poison sumac approach, but
> part of me says not to do it.  But i am sure there is no law against
> planting such things on your own property. (evil grin)
>
> Under the bridge is also a haven for kids doing drugs, and I want to kill
> that idea too.  There must be some good choices to make that a nasty place
> to pass through, or be in.
>
> Even thought of keeping a fresh dead skunk under there.
>
> Hardiness zone 6a, southwest Ontario, spring flooding, damp/dry all
> summer, full south sun, shaded under bridge structure.
>
> Cuttings appreciated!  (of nasty thorned plants [smile])  Father inlaw is
> getting tired of replacing the fence and chasing cattle at age 75.
> Thought I could help with a living fence to protect the strands of barbed
> wire that cover the gap and run over the water, keeping the cattle in and
> forming a river gate.
>
> Thanks,
> Tom
>
> --
> Thomas Olenio
> Ontario, Hardiness Zone 6a
>
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> [This message contained attachments]
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 9
>    Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 15:21:40 -0400
>    From: Tom Volkening <volkenin@mail.lib.msu.edu>
> Subject: RE: Natural fencing Suggestions
>
> Tom,
> I would second the idea of using the Osage Orange as a living fence.  It is
> supposed to be hardy to zone 5 so it should grow in your area.  This web
> page has information about the Osage Orange and links to other pages with
> information.  I can remember seeing them growing in Indiana when kid
> visiting relatives in the summer.
>
> Tom Volkening
> Engineering Library
> 1515 Engineering Building
> Michigan State University
> East Lansing, MI 48824-1226
> Phone:  517-432-1498
> Fax:      517-353-9041
> Email:    volkenin@msu.edu
>               volkenin@egr.msu.edu
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Thomas Olenio [mailto:tolenio@sentex.net]
> Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2001 3:01 PM
> To: nafex@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [nafex] Natural fencing Suggestions
>
> Hello All,
>
> I would like some "living fence" ideas, to keep out unwanted ATV's, ATC's
> and dirt bikes.
>
> The gap is about 50' wide, under a bridge, running east west, so there is
> plenty of sun except under the bridge.
>
> People with no respect for property cut the fence under the bridge
> regardless of there being cattle in the field, to get there fill of fun on
> their machines in the pasture, destroying the grass the cattle feed on,
> and presenting a legal injury problem.
>
> At first I liked poison ivy and those sorts of things, but that may be too
> cruel for even these people.
>
> Any suggestions on a very cruel, thornded, fast growing plant/shrub/cane
> that will (over time) fill the gap 50' on the south side, and grow under
> the bridge?
>
> I still like the poison ivy, poison oak, and poison sumac approach, but
> part of me says not to do it.  But i am sure there is no law against
> planting such things on your own property. (evil grin)
>
> Under the bridge is also a haven for kids doing drugs, and I want to kill
> that idea too.  There must be some good choices to make that a nasty place
> to pass through, or be in.
>
> Even thought of keeping a fresh dead skunk under there.
>
> Hardiness zone 6a, southwest Ontario, spring flooding, damp/dry all
> summer, full south sun, shaded under bridge structure.
>
> Cuttings appreciated!  (of nasty thorned plants [smile])  Father inlaw is
> getting tired of replacing the fence and chasing cattle at age 75.
> Thought I could help with a living fence to protect the strands of barbed
> wire that cover the gap and run over the water, keeping the cattle in and
> forming a river gate.
>
> Thanks,
> Tom
>
> --
> Thomas Olenio
> Ontario, Hardiness Zone 6a
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 10
>    Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 15:25:39 -0400
>    From: Tom Volkening <volkenin@mail.lib.msu.edu>
> Subject: RE: Natural fencing Suggestions
>
> Sorry I forgot to put in the URL for the web page with information about the
> Osage Orange the fingers got ahead of the brain.
> http://www.gpnc.org/osage.htm
>
> Tom Volkening
> Engineering Library
> 1515 Engineering Building
> Michigan State University
> East Lansing, MI 48824-1226
> Phone:  517-432-1498
> Fax:      517-353-9041
> Email:    volkenin@msu.edu
>               volkenin@egr.msu.edu
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Thomas Olenio [mailto:tolenio@sentex.net]
> Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2001 3:01 PM
> To: nafex@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [nafex] Natural fencing Suggestions
>
> Hello All,
>
> I would like some "living fence" ideas, to keep out unwanted ATV's, ATC's
> and dirt bikes.
>
> The gap is about 50' wide, under a bridge, running east west, so there is
> plenty of sun except under the bridge.
>
> People with no respect for property cut the fence under the bridge
> regardless of there being cattle in the field, to get there fill of fun on
> their machines in the pasture, destroying the grass the cattle feed on,
> and presenting a legal injury problem.
>
> At first I liked poison ivy and those sorts of things, but that may be too
> cruel for even these people.
>
> Any suggestions on a very cruel, thornded, fast growing plant/shrub/cane
> that will (over time) fill the gap 50' on the south side, and grow under
> the bridge?
>
> I still like the poison ivy, poison oak, and poison sumac approach, but
> part of me says not to do it.  But i am sure there is no law against
> planting such things on your own property. (evil grin)
>
> Under the bridge is also a haven for kids doing drugs, and I want to kill
> that idea too.  There must be some good choices to make that a nasty place
> to pass through, or be in.
>
> Even thought of keeping a fresh dead skunk under there.
>
> Hardiness zone 6a, southwest Ontario, spring flooding, damp/dry all
> summer, full south sun, shaded under bridge structure.
>
> Cuttings appreciated!  (of nasty thorned plants [smile])  Father inlaw is
> getting tired of replacing the fence and chasing cattle at age 75.
> Thought I could help with a living fence to protect the strands of barbed
> wire that cover the gap and run over the water, keeping the cattle in and
> forming a river gate.
>
> Thanks,
> Tom
>
> --
> Thomas Olenio
> Ontario, Hardiness Zone 6a
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 11
>    Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 20:33:12 -0000
>    From: "Christopher Mauchline" <mauch1@aol.com>
> Subject: Re: Natural fencing Suggestions
>
> Another posibility, although I hesitate to suggest it is the
> multifloral rose.  If I remember correctly it was originally brought
> here for "living fences".  The bushes can get huge - 12x12'
>
> I hesitate to suggest it is I don't know if its in Canada.  Its
> considered a noxious weed here now (at least in Kansas):
> http://www.ink.org/public/kda/phealth/phprot/mrose.html
>
> It has really nasty thorns.  In looking at the link for Osage Orange
> the thorn looked painful, but not nearly as bad as either hawthorn or
> multifloral rose.
>
> Tom, no matter what you choose, how are you going to get the plants
> established (and sizeable enough to prevent entry) before these "fun
> seekers" run them over and kill them with their vehicles?
>
> How about multifloral rose, hawthorn, Osage Orange *and* poison ivy +
> poison sumac planted all together?  (I have no patience or tolerance
> for vandals).
>
> Chris Mauchline
> SE PA, zone 6
>
> --- In nafex@y..., Thomas Olenio <tolenio@s...> wrote:
> > Hello All,
> >
> > I would like some "living fence" ideas, to keep out unwanted ATV's,
> ATC's
> > and dirt bikes.
> >
> > The gap is about 50' wide, under a bridge, running east west, so
> there is
> > plenty of sun except under the bridge.
> >
> > People with no respect for property cut the fence under the bridge
> > regardless of there being cattle in the field, to get there fill of
> fun on
> > their machines in the pasture, destroying the grass the cattle feed
> on,
> > and presenting a legal injury problem.
> >
> > At first I liked poison ivy and those sorts of things, but that may
> be too
> > cruel for even these people.
> >
> > Any suggestions on a very cruel, thornded, fast growing
> plant/shrub/cane
> > that will (over time) fill the gap 50' on the south side, and grow
> under
> > the bridge?
> >
> > I still like the poison ivy, poison oak, and poison sumac approach,
> but
> > part of me says not to do it.  But i am sure there is no law against
> > planting such things on your own property. (evil grin)
> >
> > Under the bridge is also a haven for kids doing drugs, and I want
> to kill
> > that idea too.  There must be some good choices to make that a
> nasty place
> > to pass through, or be in.
> >
> > Even thought of keeping a fresh dead skunk under there.
> >
> > Hardiness zone 6a, southwest Ontario, spring flooding, damp/dry all
> > summer, full south sun, shaded under bridge structure.
> >
> > Cuttings appreciated!  (of nasty thorned plants [smile])  Father
> inlaw is
> > getting tired of replacing the fence and chasing cattle at age 75.
> > Thought I could help with a living fence to protect the strands of
> barbed
> > wire that cover the gap and run over the water, keeping the cattle
> in and
> > forming a river gate.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Tom
> >
> > --
> > Thomas Olenio
> > Ontario, Hardiness Zone 6a
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 12
>    Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 15:57:40 -0700
>    From: hector black <hblack@TWLakes.Net>
> Subject: Re: Natural fencing Suggestions
>
> Hi Tom,  There's a citrus, trifoliate orange, that is used around defense
> establishments and forms an inpenetrable fence.  Thorns are huge and very
> rigid and sharp.  Punctures tires etc.  It's hardy here in a cold zone 6.
> Can take part shade, but not deep shade.    Hector Black
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Thomas Olenio <tolenio@sentex.net>
> To: <nafex@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2001 12:00 PM
> Subject: [nafex] Natural fencing Suggestions
>
> > Hello All,
> >
> > I would like some "living fence" ideas, to keep out unwanted ATV's, ATC's
> > and dirt bikes.
> >
> > The gap is about 50' wide, under a bridge, running east west, so there is
> > plenty of sun except under the bridge.
> >
> > People with no respect for property cut the fence under the bridge
> > regardless of there being cattle in the field, to get there fill of fun on
> > their machines in the pasture, destroying the grass the cattle feed on,
> > and presenting a legal injury problem.
> >
> > At first I liked poison ivy and those sorts of things, but that may be too
> > cruel for even these people.
> >
> > Any suggestions on a very cruel, thornded, fast growing plant/shrub/cane
> > that will (over time) fill the gap 50' on the south side, and grow under
> > the bridge?
> >
> > I still like the poison ivy, poison oak, and poison sumac approach, but
> > part of me says not to do it.  But i am sure there is no law against
> > planting such things on your own property. (evil grin)
> >
> > Under the bridge is also a haven for kids doing drugs, and I want to kill
> > that idea too.  There must be some good choices to make that a nasty place
> > to pass through, or be in.
> >
> > Even thought of keeping a fresh dead skunk under there.
> >
> > Hardiness zone 6a, southwest Ontario, spring flooding, damp/dry all
> > summer, full south sun, shaded under bridge structure.
> >
> > Cuttings appreciated!  (of nasty thorned plants [smile])  Father inlaw is
> > getting tired of replacing the fence and chasing cattle at age 75.
> > Thought I could help with a living fence to protect the strands of barbed
> > wire that cover the gap and run over the water, keeping the cattle in and
> > forming a river gate.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Tom
> >
> > --
> > Thomas Olenio
> > Ontario, Hardiness Zone 6a
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 13
>    Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 17:38:03 -0400
>    From: "Mark Garrison" <pawpaw1@home.com>
> Subject: natural fencing
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Mark Garrison
> To: nafex@yahoo.com
> Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2001 5:37 PM
> Subject: natural fencing
>
> Osage orange your best bet in the sun, Mellingers has cheap seedlings.
> Don't plant multiflora rose, it nearly took over our farm back in Indiana,
> my father cussed, cut, dug, burned, sprayed and cussed before finally
> getting rid of it.
>
> Mark, RI zone 6
>
> [This message contained attachments]
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 14
>    Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 17:42:58 -0700
>    From: "kevin poland" <kvpoland@midmaine.com>
> Subject: Re: Natural fencing Suggestions
>
> tom,
> the amazing thing is that they let people have those toys who have no land
> to use them on. atv's are a real pest around here also, the riders have no
> respect for living plants. i wouldn't care if they stayed on the roads, but
> they won't. i've put logs across the road, old discarded concrete steps,
> whatever they can't easily or hurriedly move. no one violating someone elses
> space wants to hang out there in the open too long, thats why locks are only
> for honest people who have a momentary lapse in judgement
> kevin
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Thomas Olenio <tolenio@sentex.net>
> To: <nafex@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2001 12:00 PM
> Subject: [nafex] Natural fencing Suggestions
>
> > Hello All,
> >
> > I would like some "living fence" ideas, to keep out unwanted ATV's, ATC's
> > and dirt bikes.
> >
> > The gap is about 50' wide, under a bridge, running east west, so there is
> > plenty of sun except under the bridge.
> >
> > People with no respect for property cut the fence under the bridge
> > regardless of there being cattle in the field, to get there fill of fun on
> > their machines in the pasture, destroying the grass the cattle feed on,
> > and presenting a legal injury problem.
> >
> > At first I liked poison ivy and those sorts of things, but that may be too
> > cruel for even these people.
> >
> > Any suggestions on a very cruel, thornded, fast growing plant/shrub/cane
> > that will (over time) fill the gap 50' on the south side, and grow under
> > the bridge?
> >
> > I still like the poison ivy, poison oak, and poison sumac approach, but
> > part of me says not to do it.  But i am sure there is no law against
> > planting such things on your own property. (evil grin)
> >
> > Under the bridge is also a haven for kids doing drugs, and I want to kill
> > that idea too.  There must be some good choices to make that a nasty place
> > to pass through, or be in.
> >
> > Even thought of keeping a fresh dead skunk under there.
> >
> > Hardiness zone 6a, southwest Ontario, spring flooding, damp/dry all
> > summer, full south sun, shaded under bridge structure.
> >
> > Cuttings appreciated!  (of nasty thorned plants [smile])  Father inlaw is
> > getting tired of replacing the fence and chasing cattle at age 75.
> > Thought I could help with a living fence to protect the strands of barbed
> > wire that cover the gap and run over the water, keeping the cattle in and
> > forming a river gate.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Tom
> >
> > --
> > Thomas Olenio
> > Ontario, Hardiness Zone 6a
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 15
>    Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 18:43:59 -0400
>    From: "Gordon Nofs" <gc_nofs@hotmail.com>
> Subject: Re: Natural fencing Suggestions
>
> Multiflora rose fence. This grows fast, is cheep, grows wide, and is a good
> entaglement, can not be driven through. Will most likly fill under the
> bridge.
>
>   I did this along my lot line, and found out that if anyone got hut on that
> or any barb wire fence or many other things even though it is on my property
> I could be sued. You may not have a prayer except keeping  the road kill in
> supply under there during the summer months.
>       Gordon
> ****************************************************
>
> ----Original Message Follows----
> From: Thomas Olenio <tolenio@sentex.net>
> Reply-To: nafex@yahoogroups.com
> To: nafex@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [nafex] Natural fencing Suggestions
> Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 15:00:40 -0400 (EDT)
>
> Hello All,
>
> I would like some "living fence" ideas, to keep out unwanted ATV's, ATC's
> and dirt bikes.
>
> The gap is about 50' wide, under a bridge, running east west, so there is
> plenty of sun except under the bridge.
>
> People with no respect for property cut the fence under the bridge
> regardless of there being cattle in the field, to get there fill of fun on
> their machines in the pasture, destroying the grass the cattle feed on,
> and presenting a legal injury problem.
>
> At first I liked poison ivy and those sorts of things, but that may be too
> cruel for even these people.
>
> Any suggestions on a very cruel, thornded, fast growing plant/shrub/cane
> that will (over time) fill the gap 50' on the south side, and grow under
> the bridge?
>
> I still like the poison ivy, poison oak, and poison sumac approach, but
> part of me says not to do it.  But i am sure there is no law against
> planting such things on your own property. (evil grin)
>
> Under the bridge is also a haven for kids doing drugs, and I want to kill
> that idea too.  There must be some good choices to make that a nasty place
> to pass through, or be in.
>
> Even thought of keeping a fresh dead skunk under there.
>
> Hardiness zone 6a, southwest Ontario, spring flooding, damp/dry all
> summer, full south sun, shaded under bridge structure.
>
> Cuttings appreciated!  (of nasty thorned plants [smile])  Father inlaw is
> getting tired of replacing the fence and chasing cattle at age 75.
> Thought I could help with a living fence to protect the strands of barbed
> wire that cover the gap and run over the water, keeping the cattle in and
> forming a river gate.
>
> Thanks,
> Tom
>
> --
> Thomas Olenio
> Ontario, Hardiness Zone 6a
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 16
>    Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 19:42:46 -0400
>    From: jhecksel@voyager.net
> Subject: Re: Natural fence, Homo ATaVistica
>
> Hi Thomas:
>
> Tough problem.  My condolences.  Consider a second fence 10 to 15 meters
> inside the outside fence.  Invite builders to dump waste from old wooden
> construction (aka, nails).  Charge a fee.
>
> Bozos on ATVs see any kind of obstruction or vegetation as a challenge
> to be subdued.  But they hate to walk.  If you happen to see an
> inoperative ATV on your property you might feed it some suger...horses
> love sugar and the horsies are tired.  There was a case in Wisconsin
> where a farmer filled a 4WD with sloppy dairy manure.  Judge ruled
> farmer had right to fertilize his field and 4WD was not supposed to be
> there.  You could try fertilizing them ;-)
>
> Plants that have not been mentioned that are worth a try include
> blackberries and seedling pears.  European farm practice was to saw
> partially through the trunk at about 1.5m height and bend it over.  The
> tops could then be woven basket style between adjacent trees if they
> were planted close enough.  Nasty job.  Probably reserved for
> landowner's least favorite serfs.
>
> Good luck.
>
> Thomas Olenio wrote:
> >
> > Hello All,
> >
> > I would like some "living fence" ideas, to keep out unwanted ATV's, ATC's
> > and dirt bikes.
> >
> > The gap is about 50' wide, under a bridge, running east west, so there is
> > plenty of sun except under the bridge.
> >
> > People with no respect for property cut the fence under the bridge
> > regardless of there being cattle in the field, to get there fill of fun on
> > their machines in the pasture, destroying the grass the cattle feed on,
> > and presenting a legal injury problem.
> >
> > At first I liked poison ivy and those sorts of things, but that may be too
> > cruel for even these people.
> >
> > Any suggestions on a very cruel, thornded, fast growing plant/shrub/cane
> > that will (over time) fill the gap 50' on the south side, and grow under
> > the bridge?
> >
> > I still like the poison ivy, poison oak, and poison sumac approach, but
> > part of me says not to do it.  But i am sure there is no law against
> > planting such things on your own property. (evil grin)
> >
> > Under the bridge is also a haven for kids doing drugs, and I want to kill
> > that idea too.  There must be some good choices to make that a nasty place
> > to pass through, or be in.
> >
> > Even thought of keeping a fresh dead skunk under there.
> >
> > Hardiness zone 6a, southwest Ontario, spring flooding, damp/dry all
> > summer, full south sun, shaded under bridge structure.
> >
> > Cuttings appreciated!  (of nasty thorned plants [smile])  Father inlaw is
> > getting tired of replacing the fence and chasing cattle at age 75.
> > Thought I could help with a living fence to protect the strands of barbed
> > wire that cover the gap and run over the water, keeping the cattle in and
> > forming a river gate.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Tom
> >
> > --
> > Thomas Olenio
> > Ontario, Hardiness Zone 6a
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
> --
>
>                                             -Ellen Hecksel
>                                              Eaton Rapids, Michigan
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 17
>    Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 21:44:09 -0400
>    From: Joe Boles <jobo@istar.ca>
> Subject: Re: Natural fencing Suggestions
>
> Tom:
>
> I've have made a living fence of hawthorn. Purchased mail order rooted
> cuttings from a nursery in Manitoba (20 years ago). They can be pruned
> to what ever width & height you like, interwoven, tied together. I let
> them grow vertical the first year then tied the leaders/branches
> horizontal and interweaved them. It worked out well.
>
> Joe Boles
> Mississauga, ON
>
> Thomas Olenio wrote:
>
> > Hello All,
> >
> > I would like some "living fence" ideas, to keep out unwanted ATV's,
> > ATC's
> > and dirt bikes.
> >
> > The gap is about 50' wide, under a bridge, running east west, so there
> > is
> > plenty of sun except under the bridge.
> >
> > People with no respect for property cut the fence under the bridge
> > regardless of there being cattle in the field, to get there fill of
> > fun on
> > their machines in the pasture, destroying the grass the cattle feed
> > on,
> > and presenting a legal injury problem.
> >
> > At first I liked poison ivy and those sorts of things, but that may be
> > too
> > cruel for even these people.
> >
> > Any suggestions on a very cruel, thornded, fast growing
> > plant/shrub/cane
> > that will (over time) fill the gap 50' on the south side, and grow
> > under
> > the bridge?
> >
> > I still like the poison ivy, poison oak, and poison sumac approach,
> > but
> > part of me says not to do it.  But i am sure there is no law against
> > planting such things on your own property. (evil grin)
> >
> > Under the bridge is also a haven for kids doing drugs, and I want to
> > kill
> > that idea too.  There must be some good choices to make that a nasty
> > place
> > to pass through, or be in.
> >
> > Even thought of keeping a fresh dead skunk under there.
> >
> > Hardiness zone 6a, southwest Ontario, spring flooding, damp/dry all
> > summer, full south sun, shaded under bridge structure.
> >
> > Cuttings appreciated!  (of nasty thorned plants [smile])  Father inlaw
> > is
> > getting tired of replacing the fence and chasing cattle at age 75.
> > Thought I could help with a living fence to protect the strands of
> > barbed
> > wire that cover the gap and run over the water, keeping the cattle in
> > and
> > forming a river gate.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Tom
> >
> > --
> > Thomas Olenio
> > Ontario, Hardiness Zone 6a
> >
> >
> >
> >                    Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>   [www.newaydirect.com]
>
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
>
> [This message contained attachments]
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 18
>    Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 21:49:10 -0400
>    From: "Steve Shambeda" <sshambeda@paonline.com>
> Subject: Re: Natural fencing Suggestions
>
> Plant hybrid poplar about 2 or 3 feet apart. Should be able to get them for
> under $5 each.
> Mine have been in the ground for 6 years and are 6" in diameter at the base
> and 25' tall.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Thomas Olenio <tolenio@sentex.net>
> To: <nafex@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2001 3:00 PM
> Subject: [nafex] Natural fencing Suggestions
>
> > Hello All,
> >
> > I would like some "living fence" ideas, to keep out unwanted ATV's, ATC's
> > and dirt bikes.
> >
> > The gap is about 50' wide, under a bridge, running east west, so there is
> > plenty of sun except under the bridge.
> >
> > People with no respect for property cut the fence under the bridge
> > regardless of there being cattle in the field, to get there fill of fun on
> > their machines in the pasture, destroying the grass the cattle feed on,
> > and presenting a legal injury problem.
> >
> > At first I liked poison ivy and those sorts of things, but that may be too
> > cruel for even these people.
> >
> > Any suggestions on a very cruel, thornded, fast growing plant/shrub/cane
> > that will (over time) fill the gap 50' on the south side, and grow under
> > the bridge?
> >
> > I still like the poison ivy, poison oak, and poison sumac approach, but
> > part of me says not to do it.  But i am sure there is no law against
> > planting such things on your own property. (evil grin)
> >
> > Under the bridge is also a haven for kids doing drugs, and I want to kill
> > that idea too.  There must be some good choices to make that a nasty place
> > to pass through, or be in.
> >
> > Even thought of keeping a fresh dead skunk under there.
> >
> > Hardiness zone 6a, southwest Ontario, spring flooding, damp/dry all
> > summer, full south sun, shaded under bridge structure.
> >
> > Cuttings appreciated!  (of nasty thorned plants [smile])  Father inlaw is
> > getting tired of replacing the fence and chasing cattle at age 75.
> > Thought I could help with a living fence to protect the strands of barbed
> > wire that cover the gap and run over the water, keeping the cattle in and
> > forming a river gate.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Tom
> >
> > --
> > Thomas Olenio
> > Ontario, Hardiness Zone 6a
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 19
>    Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 20:14:06 -0600
>    From: "carolyn wood" <natvwine@cut.net>
> Subject: scions and rootstock
>
> I have been a long time customer of Bear Creek and am now looking around in
> vain for some M111 rootstock. Does anyone have a supplier in the western
> U.S.?
>
> I would also like to purchase or trade misc. scion/budwood to topwork my
> many plum seedlings.
> I have a number of cider apple scions and perry pear scions I could
> trade....
>
> Bob @ www.native-wines.com or natvwine@cut.net
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 20
>    Date: Thu, 19 Apr 01 22:41:43 -0700
>    From: rick valley <bamboogrove@cmug.com>
> Subject: RE: Natural fencing Suggestions
>
> >I would like some "living fence" ideas, to keep out unwanted ATV's, ATC's
> >and dirt bikes.
> >
> >The gap is about 50' wide, under a bridge, running east west, so there is
> >plenty of sun except under the bridge.
> >
> >People with no respect for property cut the fence under the bridge
> >regardless of there being cattle in the field, to get there fill of fun on
> >their machines in the pasture, destroying the grass the cattle feed on,
> >and presenting a legal injury problem.
>
> Getting the plants established will be the hard part; I'd recommend leaving
> a
> gap on the path most favored by the atv-ers, and in that gap placing short
> lengths of rebar, cut at 45° on the ends and driven into the ground angled
> towards the oncoming tires. (use a bit of pipe as a "set" so you don't dull
> the point driving them in) Fairly humane, if care is taken to locate the
> spikes where the vehicles cannot be traveling too fast, and perhaps some
> sticks for camoflage. If the gap is bounded by species that can easily be
> layered into it once the traffic is discouraged and the hedge established-
> voilà! a full hedge! The spikes have been used successfully in a number of
> places to discourage illegal off-roading; replacing tires is burdensome to
> the slothful who ride those things. Best not done by you or on your land of
> course, and you never saw this idea.
> I've never done it either.
> -Rick
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


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