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  • From: tom agnew <agn2t@aol.com>
  • To: msar-riders@lists.ibiblio.org
  • Subject: Re: [MSAR] Standards for mounted SAR
  • Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 13:30:52 -0500

sir or ma what ever I love to learn I train ever time I can I go to ever clinics I have time to now to say this about that you should not put all old folks in the same  bunch like I will not put all young people in the same bunch  thank you for your time. FYI    I am 63 yrs  old


 
 Tom AGNEW


-----Original Message-----
From: E.S. <ES212@QWEST.NET>
To: Mounted search and rescue <msar-riders@lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Wed, Mar 10, 2010 11:00 am
Subject: Re: [MSAR] Standards for mounted SAR

in short : it's one big mess and every group has it's big ego, "no standards 
for the standards"; however I believe that  one can't have too much 
learning..  we'll always see the old timer that don't want to change 
anything and think their way is the only way...  I have the NASAR 
certifications , and I'm always happy to have more knowledge and training by 
any organization. I also have many hours in the filed doing things the way 
the local sheriff wants it done. but I just know more... and hope to do my 
volunteer work better.  that the point isn't it?
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "T'mi Finkle" <tfinkle@erols.com>
To: "'Mounted search and rescue'" <msar-riders@lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2010 4:55 AM
Subject: Re: [MSAR] Standards for mounted SAR


I agree with Irv and Una.  While there are SAR and MSAR documents that have
been written by national and international organizations, the requirements
and KSA's are not enforceable unless they are adopted at the local level.
In the USA, the Posse Comitatus Act of 1878 (18 U.S.C. ยง 1385) substantially
limits the powers of any national agency having jurisdiction (AHJ) on
non-government property, thus making National SAR standards a mute point.

Standards such as those published by ASTM International are not mandatory,
but are available for voluntary adoption by the end-user (if they want to
pay for them first).  Such standards (by default) are written for
application at higher level with the adoption based upon the generalization
of skills currently in practice (within the field), with what has been
approved by local AHJ's. Standards written by national and international
private entities incorporate the minimum KSA's approved/adopted practices
throughout a broad geographical region (such as the USA).

Like many of the MSAR-Riders readers, I have helped developed MSAR standards
for ASTM International, as well as for numerous local and state governments.
One of the biggest obstacles I have observed during the standards process is
that some MSAR practitioners want to incorporate KSA's used at their local
level and have them included in a document designed for national adoption.
Several local, state or regional (level) MSAR standards are currently in
place throughout the USA and Canada and should any conflicting KSA's be
identified between AHJ's, those items can not be included into a document
written for national adoption.

As Una and others have pointed out, look towards your local, state of tribal
AHJ for standards they have already adopted. The goal of the ASTM
International MSAR Responder standard was to designed to provide a
(purchased) high level document that could easily be adopted at the local
end-user and reinforce what is practiced/implemented at that response level.


As a closing point; if MSAR standards must be purchased, then they are not
truly applicable for State, National or International application;
government documents are free source products.  If an end-user has to pay to
view a standard, it is simply a document for sale as someone's business
product.

T'mi
www.trotsar.org

PS: My involvement with MSAR and SAR standards is strictly an all volunteer
activity. I do NOT receive monetary compensation for my work in the writing
of SAR/MSAR standards, nor do I have my travel expenses paid for (to attend
SAR events) by any standards organization (i.e.: ASTM, IEEE or NASAR).

PS-2: I only had a few to write this response, so forgive my typo's


-----Original Message-----
On Behalf Of Una Smith
Sent: Tuesday, March 09, 2010 11:55 AM

Subject: [MSAR] Standards for mounted SAR

As Irv says, there are no national standards for SAR.  Publication of
a standard by ASTM does not make it a national standard.  Adoption of
a standard by NASAR does not make it a national standard.  A standard
becomes a formal national standard if it is adopted by a national
agency having jurisdiction.  A standard becomes an informal national
standard if it is adopted by a majority of users across the nation.

.............

Hope this helps.

Una Smith
New Mexico

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