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  • From: Mustang Blue <mustang_blue_wy@yahoo.com>
  • To: msar-riders@lists.ibiblio.org
  • Subject: Re: [MSAR] whiplash
  • Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 09:42:38 -0700 (PDT)

Not trying to beat a dead horse here......but I suffered whiplash 3 years ago
when I was run off the interstate at 75mph. Thank God for seatbelts! I don't
need to go into the grusome and ugly details here, just wanted to say that it
is not so uncomfortable to wear a helmet even after whiplash...and if you are
THAT worried about your neck (most cowboy hats won't stay on during a bad
wreck anyway) might I suggest a neck brace?
They too are uncomfortable, but allowed me enough freedom on horse back to
still compete and win in gymkahnas.
Any, getting off my sopbox now.....just wanted to say that "I" totaly
understand what it is like to suffer the long term effects of whiplash.
Lona in WY

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Today's Topics:

1. Re: Falling safely (Paul Fleming)
2. Helmet safety (Una Smith)
3. Re: Helmet safety (Paul Fleming)
4. Re: Sanctioning Bodies (Una Smith)
5. Re: Falling Safely (David Skofstad)
6. Re: Falling safely (Jorene Downs)
7. CHECK THIS SITE OUT (Karen Nesbitt)
8. Long sleeves... (Karen Nesbitt)
9. Gear.... (Pennbo's)
10. Re: Gear.... (T'mi Fi)
11. Six or 8 inches...crumpled...sounds like a lifesaver to me.
(Karen Nesbitt)
12. Re: Six or 8 inches...crumpled...sounds like a lifesaver to
me. (Pennbo's)
13. Re: 80-20- rule (IRVIN LICHTENSTEIN)
From: "Paul Fleming" <pfleming@nwlink.com>
Subject: Re: [MSAR] Falling safely
Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 09:45:02 -0700
To: "Mounted search and rescue" <msar-riders@lists.ibiblio.org>

Yes, but Does he teach it with a GPS in one hand the map in the other and
flashlight in the teeth in the dark.

Paul
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jorene Downs"
To: "Mounted search and rescue"
Sent: Sunday, May 13, 2007 10:44 PM
Subject: [MSAR] Falling safely


> From: "PFleming"

>> learning how to fall off your horse what a hoot.
>
> Our trainer of almost 20 years, who has been instructing, training and
> competing at the World level for about 40 years, starts beginner riding
> lessons with "how to fall safely" from a horse. Yes, it works. ;)
>
> ~ ~ ~ ~
> Jorene Downs
> SAR & CERT
> Mounted SAR
> www.ceoates.com/msar
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> MSAR-Riders mailing list
> MSAR-Riders@lists.ibiblio.org
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/msar-riders
>
>



From: Una Smith <una.smith@att.net>
Subject: [MSAR] Helmet safety
Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 13:05:01 -0600
To: Mounted search and rescue <msar-riders@lists.ibiblio.org>

I think sometimes the point of a helmet gets lost in discussion. The
helmet is not an alternative to falling when you don't hit your head.
The helmet is there for when you *do* hit your head, despite all your
best efforts and training to avoid that.

I am all for falling safely. So much better than the alternative.
But it does not always happen that way.

One key principle of risk management is the awareness of contributing
factors. All too often after a bad accident we recognize multiple
things done wrong or gone wrong that contributed to the severity of
the accident. Wearing a helmet is one of the easiest things a rider
can do to reduce the contributing factors.

Una Smith
New Mexico

From: "Paul Fleming" <pfleming@nwlink.com>
Subject: Re: [MSAR] Helmet safety
Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 12:22:29 -0700
To: "Mounted search and rescue" <msar-riders@lists.ibiblio.org>

Unna,

I fully agree, I was just pulling Jorene's chain a little.

Paul
----- Original Message -----
From: "Una Smith"
To: "Mounted search and rescue"
Sent: Monday, May 14, 2007 12:05 PM
Subject: [MSAR] Helmet safety


>I think sometimes the point of a helmet gets lost in discussion. The
> helmet is not an alternative to falling when you don't hit your head.
> The helmet is there for when you *do* hit your head, despite all your
> best efforts and training to avoid that.
>
> I am all for falling safely. So much better than the alternative.
> But it does not always happen that way.
>
> One key principle of risk management is the awareness of contributing
> factors. All too often after a bad accident we recognize multiple
> things done wrong or gone wrong that contributed to the severity of
> the accident. Wearing a helmet is one of the easiest things a rider
> can do to reduce the contributing factors.
>
> Una Smith
> New Mexico
> _______________________________________________
> MSAR-Riders mailing list
> MSAR-Riders@lists.ibiblio.org
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/msar-riders
>
>


From: Una Smith <una.smith@att.net>
Subject: Re: [MSAR] Sanctioning Bodies
Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 13:34:34 -0600
To: Mounted search and rescue <msar-riders@lists.ibiblio.org>

Chris PB wrote:
>This is what I have found out- the helmet is cooler in the summer and
>warmer in the winter than my cowboy hats. I think it's because of the
>thickness of the insulation.

That has been my experience also. The only time I overheated while
wearing my helmet was during a hike up a mountainside in knee deep
fresh snow. I was dressed for winter riding, meaning warmer than I
would have dressed to hike, but snowballing conditions were extreme
so I had to leave the horse and go on foot.

Here in the southwest US humidity is normally so low that overheating
is not a big concern except on the very worst days (110F in the Moab
Desert). Now in the southeast US high heat is a significant concern,
particularly when humidity is high. In that case, wearing a helmet
or not seems to be insignificant; the entire body is unable to shed
heat.

For evaporative cooling in hot weather I wear a wet bandana around my
neck. It works equally well, with or without helmet.

Una Smith
New Mexico

From: "David Skofstad" <dbs54neigh@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [MSAR] Falling Safely
Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 16:09:16 -0600
To: "Mounted search and rescue" <msar-riders@lists.ibiblio.org>

Una Smith wrote:

One key principle of risk management is the awareness of contributing
factors. All too often after a bad accident we recognize multiple
things done wrong or gone wrong that contributed to the severity of
the accident.


I agree. My experience in following the investigation of aircraft
accidents is that there is almost never a single fatal error. Almost always
there is one mistake in judgement followed by another and then another until
a pilot is in a corner he cannot escape from. I've found the same to be true
in equine mishaps. And wearing a properly fitted, approved helmet is never
one of those mistakes.



David Skofstad
dbs54neigh@earthlink.net
EarthLink Revolves Around You.


From: "Jorene Downs" <Jorene@CEOates.com>
Subject: Re: [MSAR] Falling safely
Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 15:20:16 -0700
To: "Mounted search and rescue" <msar-riders@lists.ibiblio.org>

LOL! Not with those specific objects, no. But she does teach that often you
can plan when to time your departure from the wreck in progress for a safer
landing area, and where (and how) to land, which would include a strategy to
pitch anything in hand away from where you would land. ;)

-Jorene


----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul Fleming"

> Yes, but Does he teach it with a GPS in one hand the map in the other and
> flashlight in the teeth in the dark.
>
> Paul
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jorene Downs"
>> From: "PFleming"

>>> learning how to fall off your horse what a hoot.
>>
>> Our trainer of almost 20 years, who has been instructing, training and
>> competing at the World level for about 40 years, starts beginner riding
>> lessons with "how to fall safely" from a horse. Yes, it works. ;)
>>
>> ~ ~ ~ ~
>> Jorene Downs
>> SAR & CERT
>> Mounted SAR
>> www.ceoates.com/msar



From: Karen Nesbitt <spanishequines@yahoo.com>
Subject: [MSAR] CHECK THIS SITE OUT
Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 15:57:12 -0700 (PDT)
To: MSAR <msar-riders@lists.ibiblio.org>

This is not MSAR, however, if you want to see what a real cowboy wears and
packs,
visit this website! It is a bout a fellow riding around the world on
horseback. Now I don't see any helmet in his pack, but I bet he could tell
us a few things about his expedition!

GO TO: www.ezrasexpedition.com

Waaaay COOOOL!

Karen Nesbitt
Iroquois County - VMSAR
Illinois

---------------------------------
Take the Internet to Go: Yahoo!Go puts the Internet in your pocket: mail,
news, photos & more. From: Karen Nesbitt <spanishequines@yahoo.com>
Subject: [MSAR] Long sleeves...
Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 16:48:03 -0700 (PDT)
To: MSAR <msar-riders@lists.ibiblio.org>

In response to:

Message: 7
Date: Sun, 13 May 2007 19:35:17 -0400
From: "Marie Lester" <marie.lester@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [MSAR] Shock Absorber
To: "Mounted search and rescue" <msar-riders@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID:
<d12cb56c0705131635y639fdc2dt948c0a37ff412025@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

So, do you alway wear long sleeved shirts to protect from the sun?

---> message deleted for space...

NO. Me personally, I do not always wear long sleeves even in the sun. I
find myself rolling them up quite often when I do and this is cumbersome.

I do wear what I can work in that is most comfortable. Even though I want
to protect my face particularly my nose from burning, oddly enough I leave
my arms to chance and wearing long sleeves in the strong heat can be
cumbersome to ME. But then we are talking ME. My arms unlike my nose for
some reason rarely if ever will burn...but again, we are talking me. Someone
else might nto be the same way.

I am with IRV though when he says layers of clothes are good to have in all
kinds of weather..., however whether it is worn or not, when I work with a
horse in any task, it is my comfort and being able to move freely that will
be a benefit to my horses comfort and how it performs and how the horse and I
function as a team.

I am one of those who point blank are not comfortable wearing a helmet
either and so a helmet personally impedes my form in fuctioning freely with
my horses. If you had my
neck, you would understand where I was coming from on this. I do not
wear a helmet PERIOD. They are something that I am not having luck in
getting used to and especially since I have yet to find one that fits and has
the neck protection I seek. I get my comfort from another hat. I am
guessing that this area strongly needs to be one of those custom things
simply because not all of us ride the same and are comfortable in doing the
"uniform" thing. And also since I ride strongly at my own risk, my gear is
my what I prefer to use and know how to use and stuff that is most efficient
to my functioning on horseback for what ever the job is. I am a small headed
adult and do not want something that is fit for a child.

As horsemen, sometimes we need custom gear. GETTING custom made gear is
expensive and difficulty to find. For me, this has been the case in finding
a so called riding helmet that gives me what I seek also from a cowboy hat.
If you want to look into difficulties of who has teh most difficult time in
getting custom gear, consider hippotherapy programs. Riders with handicaps
are some of the most interesting riders to get the right gear for and also
the most
to fit, so say the least for the most expensive to buy for. Specialty gear
and manufacturers are difficult to find especially for horsemen.

Ok, well, so much on that.

Karen Nesbitt
Iroquois County -VSMAR
Illinois








---------------------------------
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Pennbo's <pennbo@verizon.net>
Subject: [MSAR] Gear....
Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 17:47:48 -0700
To: Mounted search and rescue <msar-riders@lists.ibiblio.org>

I think we need to remind ourselves that we are not talking about trail
riding here. We are talking about being part of a trained search and
rescue team. Sometimes being part of a team means we have to follow
rules and take on responsibilities we might not otherwise do. It also
means that we MUST put our personal preferences aside for the good of
the team and the mission. Being safe should always be our number one
concern while doing MSAR work. This includes having and using the proper
gear- long sleeves, clothing with good visibility, sturdy boots,
helmets, sunscreen, first aid supplies, etc. Do we HAVE to ride with all
of this on our own time? Nope. Some of us have adopted the safe habits
for all time use- but no one is forcing us to.

Remember - we can't effectively do our job if we become part of the
problem and teammates cannot effectively do theirs if they are worried
about the safety of their team members.

Chris Pennington

From: "T'mi Fi" <tfinkle@erols.com>
Subject: Re: [MSAR] Gear....
Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 21:50:43 -0400
To: Mounted search and rescue <msar-riders@lists.ibiblio.org>

Very well said! I agree.

Tomi`
TROTSAR Mounted Team

Pennbo's wrote:

>I think we need to remind ourselves that we are not talking about trail
>riding here. We are talking about being part of a trained search and
>rescue team. Sometimes being part of a team means we have to follow
>rules and take on responsibilities we might not otherwise do. It also
>means that we MUST put our personal preferences aside for the good of
>the team and the mission. Being safe should always be our number one
>concern while doing MSAR work. This includes having and using the proper
>gear- long sleeves, clothing with good visibility, sturdy boots,
>helmets, sunscreen, first aid supplies, etc. Do we HAVE to ride with all
>of this on our own time? Nope. Some of us have adopted the safe habits
>for all time use- but no one is forcing us to.
>
>Remember - we can't effectively do our job if we become part of the
>problem and teammates cannot effectively do theirs if they are worried
>about the safety of their team members.
>
>Chris Pennington
>_______________________________________________
>MSAR-Riders mailing list
>MSAR-Riders@lists.ibiblio.org
>http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/msar-riders
>
>
>

From: Karen Nesbitt <spanishequines@yahoo.com>
Subject: [MSAR] Six or 8 inches...crumpled...sounds like a lifesaver to me.
Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 00:06:47 -0400
To: msar-riders@lists.ibiblio.org

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Responding to:

Message: 4
Date: Sun, 13 May 2007 12:09:10 -0700
From: Pennbo's

Subject: Re: [MSAR] Shock Absorber
To: Mounted search and rescue
Message-ID: <46476256.6050102@verizon.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

> 5) AND to me the most important part, the brim whether or not it is a
> straw or a Stetson acts as a shock absorber IF I fall which will
> protect my neck and head as my head might not hit the ground IF the
> brim functions correctly. Again, the helmet, has no brim and
> therefore NOT enough SHOCH ABSORBER FOR MY NECK. (key word - my.)


I realize your post is based on your opinions but you can't be serious
Karen about this one, can you? Take that brim in your hand- crumple it.
You are exerting how much pressure to do so? ten pounds, maybe less.
It's fairly easy to do. Take an average sized woman, 150lbs, add a drop
from 6-8 feet, frequently at velocity- calculate the pounds of pressure
applied to that brim. You may think it will act as shock absorber but
it
may very well be the last thing you think.

All your other reasons to wear a hat can be mitigated by the proper
helmet attire and fit. As for learning how to fall- most emergencies
don't give you time to prepare. If the worst happens and your mount
rolls over you it wont' much matter how YOU landed. If you are ejected
on the side of a mountain your tuck and roll will happen again and
again
and again as you roll down the hillside- and hopefully you meet any
rocks on the way. The list of possible situations where learning how to
fall would not be as effective as a helmet are endless.

I'll stick with my experiences which are supported by the research of
experts. I wear a seat belt and I wear a helmet. Simple enough measures
to protect myself.

Chris Pennington
____>>>

Well. Chris, NO, my post is not based on opinions. It is based on experience
and
YES, I do stand by my PREFERING THE BRIM having a brim saving my bacon more
than once. In one instance I did have a horse go over backwards and since I
had a fantastic trainer in my early days WHO TAUGHT ME HOW TO ROLL WITH SOME
OF THE PUNCHES and protect myself in case of a fall, these are the things
that saved my bacon. GOD bless that instructor for having the wherewithall to
do this. I was the only one in a class of 15 that he worked with on doing
this because largely due to my abilities of being a natural rider. I was
selected by him at the time to perform things the other students only got to
watch and see how it was done. In those days, we did not have the benefits of
all the "wonderful" equipment available today...and we had more freedom of
movement on good horses. And while most of the riders had english riding
helmets back then, I was one of the few allowed to ride bareback and no
strings! Just because we have safety equipment available, should not make
for us to rely on the equipment to the degree it impedes our judgement
particulary in progressing in good riding. And like I said, equipment is not
always 100% failsafe.

Even bronc riders of today take schooling in riding their mounts and how best
to bail or take a fall so YES....learning how to take the bucks and
bounces....I feel are all very important and yes, what a hoot! However, I
prefer not to ride broncs and prefer to train saddle horses so as that they
do not buck EVER. Bronc riders also have various other equipment and numerous
training methods before ever getting on the bronc or bull.

And most of us while on a mission do not ride horses that are not suitable
for the task at hand so much risk is eliminated by having a well trained
horse.

While there is a ton of statistics and your so called scientific research etc
available on what a helmet can do for your head, until they can make one that
has the benefits of a brim and the concerns for the issues of the NECK, I am
not buying into the helmet totally as it has its large pros and consand while
it may be required in certain disciplines, that to is fine. Now, can you tell
me some statistics regarding NECK injuries and where a helmet could have
helped in those? AS afterall. WHIPLASH can be a permanant lifelong problem.
And some of us are prone to whiplash even when we sneeze. And that helmet, it
will not protect my neck without a brim, nor will it take care of my pelvis,
hips or knees, shoulders, wrists or any part inbetween. So again, I say
learning how to rock and roll with the punches.. will help you save your head
and other parts as well.

And Chris, a helmet would not have saved Christopher Reeves from the type of
injuries he received.

My instructor taught me how to bail off of a runnining horse. He also taught
tuck and roll to avoid hitting heads on the ground. While a tuck and roll may
also end up in a dislocated shoulder, you will save your head. Unfortuneately
and yes, I agree, all accidents are just that and sometimes we have little
time to muster up a way to protect ourselves.

Regretably my cowboy hat will not save my pelvis from hitting a rock on the
way down from a hillside and so while we all enjoy the helmet issues immensly
(i guess some of us are just ofrever bored!) But anyway, these are the risks
we take while we ride horses in any venture.

May I further suggest to you then to go to a chiropractor and ask them about
neck injuries.
Or if you prefer a surgeon, specialized in injuries of the neck. Ask them
first how they are treated and then ask them about the permanent long term
after effects! All I am Im saying is that perhaps if that helmet also had a
brim it would save the necks of many a rider too. But here again, I have yet
to find a manufacturer that has a good cowboy hat "helmet" yet alone one to
fit the needs of an adult with a kid sized head. So until they have built a
better mousetrap fro my head, I am sticking to my Stetsons.

Lastly, It is such a shame we are all living in a world where lawsuits seem
to be the suit of choice in protecting ourselves in some of what we do.

Well, anyway, you asked, so, there is my peice!

Karen Nesbitt.

PS - And Chris, and you will be happy to know though, I ALWAYS wear a
seatbelt when I drive. And even though wearing one will also be a risk in
dying in an accident. While in the majority of states it is the law, even if
it was not the law, I am most comfortable while using one and feel it is for
the better in driving. Perhaps, there is one place we should be made to wear
a helmet while driving. After all, we can stil become ejected while driving
and get tossed down those long cliffs and ravenes and God forbid we land on
rocks and run smack dab into those lousy trees! I beleive we are more prone
to having more accidents while driving autos than most of us are on
horseback. And Chris, I can remember one autoaccident I was in where a
seatbelt with shoulder strap saved my miserable life, however it did nothing
for my neck and to this day, I wished that day I was wearing my cowboy hat
with a brim. I repeat....WHIPLASH IS FOREVER and had I been wearing that
lousy 5-6
or meybe an 8 inch brim IT could have done wonders in that instance for me
that day and as well pains suffering still TODAY. So as for all those
statistics, I am a LIVING ONE. However I do not always beleive the
manufacturers and I will stick to having those 5-6-or 8 inches crumpled as
they have been LIVESAVERS FOR ME.

May you always ride a good horse and may you alwasy have a safe ride. GOD
BLESS!


---------------------------------
Now that's room service! Choose from over 150,000 hotels
in 45,000 destinations on Yahoo! Travel to find your fit.
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Responding to:

Message: 4
Date: Sun, 13 May 2007 12:09:10 -0700
From: Pennbo's <pennbo@verizon.net>
Subject: Re: [MSAR] Shock Absorber
To: Mounted search and rescue <msar-riders@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <46476256.6050102@verizon.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

> 5) AND to me the most important part, the brim whether or not it is a
> straw or a Stetson acts as a shock absorber IF I fall which will
> protect my neck and head as my head might not hit the ground IF the
> brim functions correctly. Again, the helmet, has no brim and
> therefore NOT enough SHOCH ABSORBER FOR MY NECK. (key word - my.)


I realize your post is based on your opinions but you can't be serious
Karen about this one, can you? Take that
brim in your hand- crumple it.
You are exerting how much pressure to do so? ten pounds, maybe less.
It's fairly easy to do. Take an average sized woman, 150lbs, add a drop
from 6-8 feet, frequently at velocity- calculate the pounds of pressure
applied to that brim. You may think it will act as shock absorber but
it
may very well be the last thing you think.

All your other reasons to wear a hat can be mitigated by the proper
helmet attire and fit. As for learning how to fall- most emergencies
don't give you time to prepare. If the worst happens and your mount
rolls over you it wont' much matter how YOU landed. If you are ejected
on the side of a mountain your tuck and roll will happen again and
again
and again as you roll down the hillside- and hopefully you meet any
rocks on the way. The list of possible situations where learning how to
fall would not be as effective as a helmet are endless.

I'll stick
with my experiences which are supported by the research of
experts. I wear a seat belt and I wear a helmet. Simple enough measures
to protect myself.

Chris Pennington
____>>>

Well. Chris, NO, my post is not based on opinions. It is based on
experience and
YES, I do stand by my PREFERING THE BRIM having a brim saving my bacon
more than once. In one instance I did have a horse go over backwards and
since I had a fantastic trainer in my early days WHO TAUGHT ME HOW TO ROLL
WITH SOME OF THE PUNCHES and protect myself in case of a fall, these are the
things that saved my bacon. GOD bless that instructor for having the
wherewithall to do this. I was the only one in a class of 15 that he worked
with on doing this because largely due to my abilities of being a natural
rider. I was selected by him at the time to perform things the other
students only got to
watch and see how it was done. In those days, we did not have the benefits
of all the "wonderful" equipment available today...and we had more freedom of
movement on good horses. And while most of the riders had english riding
helmets back then, I was one of the few allowed to ride bareback and no
strings! Just because we have safety equipment available, should not make
for us to rely on the equipment to the degree it impedes our judgement
particulary in progressing in good riding. And like I said, equipment is
not always 100% failsafe.

Even bronc riders of today take schooling in riding their mounts and how
best to bail or take a fall so YES....learning how to take the bucks and
bounces....I feel are all very important and yes, what a hoot! However, I
prefer not to ride broncs and prefer to train saddle horses so as that they
do not buck EVER. Bronc riders also have various other
equipment and numerous training methods before ever getting on the bronc or
bull.

And most of us while on a mission do not ride horses that are not suitable
for the task at hand so much risk is eliminated by having a well trained
horse.

While there is a ton of statistics and your so called scientific research
etc available on what a helmet can do for your head, until they can make one
that has the benefits of a brim and the concerns for the issues of the NECK,
I am not buying into the helmet totally as it has its large pros and consand
while it may be required in certain disciplines, that to is fine. Now, can
you tell me some statistics regarding NECK injuries and where a helmet could
have helped in those? AS afterall. WHIPLASH can be a permanant lifelong
problem. And some of us are prone to whiplash even when we sneeze. And that
helmet, it will not protect my neck without a brim, nor
will it take care of my pelvis, hips or knees, shoulders, wrists or any part
inbetween. So again, I say learning how to rock and roll with the punches..
will help you save your head and other parts as well.

And Chris, a helmet would not have saved Christopher Reeves from the type
of injuries he received.

My instructor taught me how to bail off of a runnining horse. He also
taught tuck and roll to avoid hitting heads on the ground. While a tuck and
roll may also end up in a dislocated shoulder, you will save your head.
Unfortuneately and yes, I agree, all accidents are just that and sometimes we
have little time to muster up a way to protect ourselves.

Regretably my cowboy hat will not save my pelvis from hitting a rock on the
way down from a hillside and so while we all enjoy the helmet issues immensly
(i guess some of us are just ofrever bored!)
But anyway, these are the risks we take while we ride horses in any venture.

May I further suggest to you then to go to a chiropractor and ask them
about neck injuries.
Or if you prefer a surgeon, specialized in injuries of the neck. Ask them
first how they are treated and then ask them about the permanent long term
after effects! All I am Im saying is that perhaps if that helmet also had a
brim it would save the necks of many a rider too. But here again, I have yet
to find a manufacturer that has a good cowboy hat "helmet" yet alone one to
fit the needs of an adult with a kid sized head. So until they have built a
better mousetrap fro my head, I am sticking to my Stetsons.

Lastly, It is such a shame we are all living in a world where lawsuits seem
to be the suit of choice in protecting ourselves in some of what we do.

Well, anyway,
you asked, so, there is my peice!

Karen Nesbitt.

PS - And Chris, and you will be happy to know though, I ALWAYS wear a
seatbelt when I drive. And even though wearing one will also be a risk in
dying in an accident. While in the majority of states it is the law, even if
it was not the law, I am most comfortable while using one and feel it is for
the better in driving. Perhaps, there is one place we should be made to wear
a helmet while driving. After all, we can stil become ejected while driving
and get tossed down those long cliffs and ravenes and God forbid we land on
rocks and run smack dab into those lousy trees! I beleive we are more prone
to having more accidents while driving autos than most of us are on
horseback. And Chris, I can remember one autoaccident I was in where a
seatbelt with shoulder strap saved my miserable life, however it did nothing
for
my neck and to this day, I wished that day I was wearing my cowboy hat with a
brim. I repeat....WHIPLASH IS FOREVER and had I been wearing that lousy 5-6
or meybe an 8 inch brim IT could have done wonders in that instance for me
that day and as well pains suffering still TODAY. So as for all those
statistics, I am a LIVING ONE. However I do not always beleive the
manufacturers and I will stick to having those 5-6-or 8 inches crumpled as
they have been LIVESAVERS FOR ME.

May you always ride a good horse and may you alwasy have a safe ride. GOD
BLESS!



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From: Pennbo's <pennbo@verizon.net>
Subject: Re: [MSAR] Six or 8 inches...crumpled...sounds like a lifesaver to
me.
Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 21:45:49 -0700
To: Mounted search and rescue <msar-riders@lists.ibiblio.org>

Karen, I can't change your mind and continuing to debate on this list is
futile. Your opinions are strong and not always based on reason and
fact. I hope that you will do well with an MSAR group when you find one.

Chris Pennington

From: "IRVIN LICHTENSTEIN" <ilichten1@verizon.net>
Subject: Re: [MSAR] 80-20- rule
Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 06:38:00 -0500
To: "'Mounted search and rescue'" <msar-riders@lists.ibiblio.org>

In politics they say there are 40% of the people would vote for you
regardless, 40% would vote against you regardless, it is the 20% undecided
who you have to win over.

I met a very experienced hunter jumper trainer/instructor who didn't wear a
helmet while on a very competitive mount. He has a plate in his head and
will never ride competitively again after going off in a soft sand ring
during a solo training session over low to medium fences. Old style hunt
caps were no protection at all and did tend to whiplash the neck, new
designs have neck protection built in the form of a rear flap. As Tomi will
testify I treated a rider who not only went off but was dragged on a stone
chip arena, the helmet was destroyed, she escaped without injury but a
suspected concussion.

As to other safety devices, most will kill you if improperly used. Early
ejection seats caused back injuries so now there are pretensioners that pull
the arms and legs into position and reduced G forces. The same applies to
car seat belts and air bags. I have been doing vehicle rescue for over 20
years and I can easily tell from the injuries whether a seat belt was worn
or not. Broken legs, especially upper legs, knees, ankles-- the hardest
areas to regain full function usually mean no belt, as does submarining
(going under the air bag and hitting the dash). People don't get killed by
seatbelts trapping them, they get killed because they are too injured to
save themselves during the wait for the fire company to get there. No
vehicle should explode or even catch fire after a collision under 60 MPH
today. The days of the Pinto are long gone, thank federal regulators.

Lastly, one of the reasons horseback riding is so dangerous according to the
insurance companies is because people who think they know what they are
doing do stupid things around smart horses.

Irv Lichtenstein


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