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  • From: Paul Bucciaglia <pbucciaglia AT yahoo.com>
  • To: market-farming AT lists.ibiblio.org
  • Subject: Re: [Market-farming] Hydroponics
  • Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 18:36:51 -0800 (PST)

 
Might be time to take a nice chill pill on this whole hydroponic topic.  Lots of room here for polite discourse, disagreement, and discussion .  The bad vibes being flung around is kind of wrecking my nice winter mellow :-) 
 
Anyways:
 
-Most/many plants generally get the  majority of their carbon by taking it from the air throught the leaf stomates, and sticking it on a 5 carbon sugar to make a 6 carbon sugar (there are variations on this.....).  Interestingly enough, the industrial revolution has made this process  easier for plants by raising the CO2 concentration in the air (which is still very small relative to N2 and O2).  But of course theres that nasty global climate change problem. 
 
-As was mentioned earlier, hydroponic solutions can be made by digesting 'natural', organic, carbon based materials and passing them through root holding matrices or by passing effluent from livestock through the roots.  I had a buddy in grad school at the U of MN how was growing 15 foot hydroponic tomatoes in a greenhouse all from digested pig manure.  It was a kind of cranky system that needed a lot of babying, but it did work without synthetic fertilizers, and by utilizing an organic 'waste'.  Personally I just like growing my greenhouse tomatoes in compost and mineral amended soil because its a highly buffered system, meaning that once set up, the system doesn't need a lot of attention on my part except to trellis the plants and pick the fruit.  Its low tech, cheap, easy to do, certifed organic, and results in high quality fruit.   I have too many tractors breaking down in any given day to check a bunch of pH monitors ;-)   I have a 25X96 foot house in production for 2 years and am putting up a second this spring.  June tomatoes are gold at the farmers market.
 
-Matt writes from below:
 
 "Another thing you say is: "A "humus-intensive" greenhouse can be just
as susceptible to insects and other diseases strictly by virtue of the
high plant density and very healthy plants in a greenhouse gives bugs
an "all-you-can eat buffet"."  I've always been under the impression
that very healthy plants aren't very tasty to insects and they tend to
leave those alone and instead go for the sick, unhappy plants.  Is this a
farming myth?  If insects are so keen on eating hydroponic crops,
doesn't that mean that these crops are sick and unhappy?"
 
I hear this theory a lot and my experience as an organic grower is that its highly dependant on the plant, the pest, the place, and the season.   Three examples:
 
-field grown broccoli, well watered and fertilized, rarely suffers from flea beatle damage on my farm.  If it gets a little N deficient or water stressed, the flea beatles will munch it like crazy.  So healthy, happy plant is resistant plant.
 
-field grown spring arugula grows like a weed on my farm, looks great, customers love it, so do flea beatles.  However, no matter what I do--crop rotation, fertility, water--or how well the crop grows, they will swiss cheese it in the spring (but not in the fall....).  Just about every other east coast organic grower I know has the same problem.  So, healthy plant is not necesarily resistant.  So we all break out the remay.  Which, by the way, is oil spun into a nice light cover, which I wish I didn't have to use.  I'd love to hear if anyone is growing spring arugula on a commercial scale (thats an important qualifier) in the field, without row cover AND  without significant flea beatle damage.
 
-Here's a different example in agreeement with standard 'healthy plant=resistant plant' dogma:.  Ever watch cucumber beatles in a winter squash field?  They will lightly feed on nearly all of, say, my butternut seedlings, but every 20 or 30 or so they mob and just demolish  This is a good example of the bug monitoring the quality of light reflected from the plant and looking for the 'weak' ones to attack.  These weak plants are not effectively producing the enzymes and metabolites that would normally ward off this pest, which munches it literally to the ground. 
 
Happy winter,
 
 
Paul Bucciaglia
Fort Hill Farm, New Milford CT

 
 
 
 
 
 
Message: 8
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 16:47:03 -0800 (PST)
From: Matt Cheselka <mcheselka AT yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Market-farming] Hydroponics
To: Market Farming <market-farming AT lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <20051214004703.76806.qmail AT web53113.mail.yahoo.com&YY=86449&y5beta=yes&y5beta=yes&order=down&sort=date&pos=0&view=a">20051214004703.76806.qmail AT web53113.mail.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Here's a question for those of you in the know about hydroponics that
I've always wondered about. 
  
  Where to do the plants get their organic (carbon based) matter?  Is
this included in the solutions in the water, or do they rely on getting
it out of the air (carbon dioxide)?
  
  I have to admit I, too, have a bias against hydroponics.  I, for one,
realize that it's becuase of my own lack of knowledge.  So thanks,
Adriana, for the interesting info.  Of course your comments just create
more questions in my head.  May I ask you some?  Sometimes people take my
questioning the wrong way.  I want to assure you that these questions
are just that -- not personal attacks.

  For instance, you say: "We also use a fraction of the fertilizers of
conventional farmers and we do not leach any excess nutrients (be they
chemical or organic) into  the ground water."  Does this mean that the
plants eventually take up all the fertilizers?  When you change out
your water (which I understand needs to be done fairly often) where does
the "used" water go?
  
  You also say: "we typically use less than 20% of the water which is
required in field culture."  How would you say use of water in
hydroponics compares to drip irrigation for field crops?  From my own experience
I'd estimate that drip irrigation uses about the same amount as
hydroponic.
  
  Another thing you say is: "A "humus-intensive" greenhouse can be just
as susceptible to insects and other diseases strictly by virtue of the
high plant density and very healthy plants in a greenhouse gives bugs
an "all-you-can eat buffet"."  I've always been under the impression
that very healthy plants aren't very tasty to insects and they tend to
leave those along and instead go for the sick, unhappy plants.  Is this a
farming myth?  If insects are so keen on eating hydroponic crops,
doesn't that mean that these crops are sick and unhappy?
  
  I agree with you when you mention pros and cons and different methods
of growing veggies.  But I don't think that this is a debate like which
color is better, red or green.  Plants (and life in general) are very
resilient and will grow in virtually all circumstances -- because that's
all they know to do!  I, for one, firmly believe that there is an
optimal way to grow veggies.  For me the jury is still out in terms of what
that optimal way is.  The plants and nature will eventually tell us,
though.  The fact that hydroponics is apparently so much more labor
intensive than dirt farming makes me think that it might not be optimal.  I
just dunno.
  
  As I said above Adriana, thanks for the info.  It sounds like you
have a very successful operation.  May you and your plants stay happy.
  
  Matt Cheselka
  Cosmic Lettuce


market-farming-request AT lists.ibiblio.org wrote:


Paul Bucciaglia
Fort Hill Farm
Organic Vegetables, Herbs, and Flowers
18 Fort Hill Rd.
New Milford CT 06776
(860) 350-3158
www.forthillfarm.com

"But your flag decal won't get you
Into Heaven any more.
They're already overcrowded
From your dirty little war.
Now Jesus don't like killin'
No matter what the reason's for,
And your flag decal won't get you
Into Heaven any more."

John Prine, 1971


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