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Subject: Healthy soil and sustainable growing

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Chronological Thread  
  • From: Kelly Bauer <kellymarie62@yahoo.com>
  • To: "livingontheland@lists.ibiblio.org" <livingontheland@lists.ibiblio.org>
  • Subject: Re: [Livingontheland] Livingontheland Digest, Vol 448, Issue 1
  • Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2014 23:03:57 -0700

Please remove me from this list. Thank you~~


On Thursday, September 25, 2014 6:43 PM, "livingontheland-request@lists.ibiblio.org" <livingontheland-request@lists.ibiblio.org> wrote:


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Today's Topics:

  1. Agroecology for Food and Nutrition Security (tradingpost)
  2. Grass, Soil, Hope (Lynn Montgomery)
  3. Re: Grass, Soil, Hope (tradingpost)
  4. How Diet and #Climate Change Are Intrinsically    Linked
      (tradingpost)
  5. Re: Fighting for a Sane Food System (John D'hondt)
  6. Re: Grass, Soil, Hope (John D'hondt)
  7. Re: How Diet and #Climate Change Are    IntrinsicallyLinked
      (John D'hondt)
  8. Re: How Diet and #Climate Change Are    IntrinsicallyLinked
      (tradingpost)
  9. Re: How Diet and #Climate Change    AreIntrinsicallyLinked
      (John D'hondt)
  10. Re: How Diet and #Climate Change    AreIntrinsicallyLinked
      (tradingpost)
  11. Re: How Diet and #Climate    ChangeAreIntrinsicallyLinked
      (John D'hondt)
  12. Re: How Diet and #Climate    ChangeAreIntrinsicallyLinked
      (tradingpost)
  13. Re: How Diet and    #ClimateChangeAreIntrinsicallyLinked
      (John D'hondt)
  14. Arctic Greenhouse Grows Greens Year-Round (tradingpost)
  15. Small Farmers Can Cool the Planet. (tradingpost)
  16. Re: Arctic Greenhouse Grows Greens Year-Round (John D'hondt)
  17. Re: Arctic Greenhouse Grows Greens Year-Round (tradingpost)
  18. Re: Small Farmers Can Cool the Planet. (John D'hondt)
  19. Re: Arctic Greenhouse Grows Greens Year-Round (John D'hondt)
  20. How Ecological Farming Builds Resilience to    #Climate Change
      (tradingpost)
  21. Why ?get big? isn?t the answer for poor farmers around the
      globe (tradingpost)
  22. Re: Why ?get big? isn?t the answer for poor farmers around
      the globe (John D'hondt)
  23. Menu for a Hot Planet (wrong in so many ways) (tradingpost)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2014 10:23:23 -0600
From: tradingpost <tradingpost@lobo.net>
To: livingontheland@lists.ibiblio.org
Subject: [Livingontheland] Agroecology for Food and Nutrition Security
Message-ID: <5417127B.9040005@lobo.net" href="mailto:5417127B.9040005@lobo.net">5417127B.9040005@lobo.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

International Symposium on Agroecology for Food and Nutrition Security

http://foodtank.com/events/2014/09/18/international-symposium-on-agroecology-for-food-and-nutrition-security

IFOAM-International Federation of Organic Agriculture Movements

https://www.facebook.com/ifoam.organic



------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2014 10:47:25 -0600
From: Lynn Montgomery <sunfarm@toast.net>
To: "livingontheland@lists.ibiblio.org"
    <livingontheland@lists.ibiblio.org>
Subject: [Livingontheland] Grass, Soil, Hope
Message-ID: <6309278564209001977@unknownmsgid>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

Dear Paul,
There is a book out by my good friend Courtney White. Courtney used to
sell his grass-fed beef at Eldorado Market next to us. It's called
"Grass, Soil, Hope".
http://www.chelseagreen.com/bookstore/item/grass_soil_hope:paperback
I am amazed that the meat eating conversation on this list hasn't been
aware of this. We need to eat meat to save the Planet. If you haven't
seen this, get ready:
http://www.ted.com/talks/allan_savory_how_to_green_the_world_s_deserts_and_reverse_climate_change
This is the new movement. All the chair sitting in front of the screen
poo-pooers have tried to discredit this new movement and have utterly
failed. Even the USDA is now encouraging farmers into no till,
preferably organic no till. The best part of all this is the young
farmers and ranchers. They will save the Planet, or it will roast.
Regards, Lynn Montgomery

PEACE

> On Sep 15, 2014, at 8:32 AM, "livingontheland-request@lists.ibiblio.org" <livingontheland-request@lists.ibiblio.org> wrote:
>
> and


------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2014 11:05:48 -0600
From: tradingpost <tradingpost@lobo.net>
To: livingontheland@lists.ibiblio.org
Subject: Re: [Livingontheland] Grass, Soil, Hope
Message-ID: <54171C6C.5020801@lobo.net" href="mailto:54171C6C.5020801@lobo.net">54171C6C.5020801@lobo.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed


Hey Lynn. We know him. Pastured meat, yes. CAFO's & millions of acres
growing grain to finish them for market instead of growing food for
people, no. Plus I seriously question excessive water use for all that
(and dairy) in drought-threatened watersheds. Eastern NM, heavy in
dairy, is losing the Ogallahla aquifer. Land is worthless, unsaleable even.

paul

On 9/15/2014 10:47 AM, Lynn Montgomery wrote:
> Dear Paul,
> There is a book out by my good friend Courtney White. Courtney used to
> sell his grass-fed beef at Eldorado Market next to us. It's called
> "Grass, Soil, Hope".
> http://www.chelseagreen.com/bookstore/item/grass_soil_hope:paperback
> I am amazed that the meat eating conversation on this list hasn't been
> aware of this. We need to eat meat to save the Planet. If you haven't
> seen this, get ready:
> http://www.ted.com/talks/allan_savory_how_to_green_the_world_s_deserts_and_reverse_climate_change
> This is the new movement. All the chair sitting in front of the screen
> poo-pooers have tried to discredit this new movement and have utterly
> failed. Even the USDA is now encouraging farmers into no till,
> preferably organic no till. The best part of all this is the young
> farmers and ranchers. They will save the Planet, or it will roast.
> Regards, Lynn Montgomery
>
> PEACE
>
>> On Sep 15, 2014, at 8:32 AM, "livingontheland-request@lists.ibiblio.org" <livingontheland-request@lists.ibiblio.org> wrote:
>>
>> and
> _______________________________________________
> Livingontheland mailing list
> Livingontheland@lists.ibiblio.org
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/livingontheland



------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2014 14:14:25 -0600
From: tradingpost <tradingpost@lobo.net>
To: livingontheland@lists.ibiblio.org
Subject: [Livingontheland] How Diet and #Climate Change Are
    Intrinsically    Linked
Message-ID: <541748A1.7010705@lobo.net" href="mailto:541748A1.7010705@lobo.net">541748A1.7010705@lobo.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed


* How Diet and #Climate Change Are Intrinsically Linked
http://ecowatch.com/2014/09/14/diet-climate-change-linked/?utm_source=EcoWatch+List&utm_campaign=fffe64f305-Top_News_9_15_2014&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_49c7d43dc9-fffe64f305-85952705

"If Americans followed the recommendations and continued to consume the
same number of calories on average, greenhouse gas emissions would rise
by 12 percent. If the nation reduced its intake to 2000 calories a day
on average, the reduction would be only 1 percent."

"beef makes up 4 percent by weight of available food, but 36 percent of
emissions"

"Direct emissions from agriculture make up between 10 percent and 12
percent of overall greenhouse gas emissions. If you throw in factors
such as fertilizer and chemical production, fuel use and agricultural
land-use change, the proportion rises?along with the uncertainty?to
between 17 percent and 32 percent.

"Researchers may enhance yields and farmers may use resources more
efficiently, but populations will increase?and so will demand for meat
and dairy products."



------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2014 00:25:12 +0100
From: "John D'hondt" <dhondt@eircom.net>
To: "Healthy soil and sustainable growing"
    <livingontheland@lists.ibiblio.org>
Subject: Re: [Livingontheland] Fighting for a Sane Food System
Message-ID: <EB8DE3967B564F1D916FC868AC9ED7DC@Targadc5fefe82d>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
    reply-type=response


It's also supposed to keep air borne pollutants off the plants. In fact I
know it to work against some of these.
John

>I like this piece, makes so much sense. Those framed beds with hoops for
>covering look a lot like mine. Serious, easy season extension that works.
>Put a greenhouse over them & you've got more months of production
> paul
>
> Fighting for a Sane Food System By Joel Salatin
> http://www.motherearthnews.com/real-food/food-system-zm0z14onzkon.aspx?newsletter=1&utm_source=Sailthru&utm_medium=email&utm_term=RF%20eNews&utm_campaign=9.15.14%20RFSR#axzz3DOUR0aOi
>
> _______________________________________________
> Livingontheland mailing list
> Livingontheland@lists.ibiblio.org
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/livingontheland
>


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------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2014 01:02:38 +0100
From: "John D'hondt" <dhondt@eircom.net>
To: "Healthy soil and sustainable growing"
    <livingontheland@lists.ibiblio.org>
Subject: Re: [Livingontheland] Grass, Soil, Hope
Message-ID: <8F80477601D740D488260D6E65E9D066@Targadc5fefe82d>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
    reply-type=original


I think we need to stop regular industrial agriculture to save the planet
Lynn. Allan Savory is right in exlaining that grazing is important for
improving vegetation growth but acts like plowing and chemicals like roundup
are most definitely not. Kill the micro organisms in the soil and you have
created something deader than the desert and you will need a long term
grazing regimen to turn that around. And I would not like to eat those poor
grazers.
John

> Dear Paul,
> There is a book out by my good friend Courtney White. Courtney used to
> sell his grass-fed beef at Eldorado Market next to us. It's called
> "Grass, Soil, Hope".
> http://www.chelseagreen.com/bookstore/item/grass_soil_hope:paperback
> I am amazed that the meat eating conversation on this list hasn't been
> aware of this. We need to eat meat to save the Planet. If you haven't
> seen this, get ready:
> http://www.ted.com/talks/allan_savory_how_to_green_the_world_s_deserts_and_reverse_climate_change
> This is the new movement. All the chair sitting in front of the screen
> poo-pooers have tried to discredit this new movement and have utterly
> failed. Even the USDA is now encouraging farmers into no till,
> preferably organic no till. The best part of all this is the young
> farmers and ranchers. They will save the Planet, or it will roast.
> Regards, Lynn Montgomery
>
> PEACE
>
>> On Sep 15, 2014, at 8:32 AM, "livingontheland-request@lists.ibiblio.org"
>> <livingontheland-request@lists.ibiblio.org> wrote:
>>
>> and
> _______________________________________________
> Livingontheland mailing list
> Livingontheland@lists.ibiblio.org
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/livingontheland
>


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------------------------------

Message: 7
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2014 01:28:12 +0100
From: "John D'hondt" <dhondt@eircom.net>
To: "Healthy soil and sustainable growing"
    <livingontheland@lists.ibiblio.org>
Subject: Re: [Livingontheland] How Diet and #Climate Change Are
    IntrinsicallyLinked
Message-ID: <4238DCC9A17D49A6BD83A6839CDAAD10@Targadc5fefe82d>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252";
    reply-type=response


"beef makes up 4 percent by weight of available food, but 36 percent of
emissions"

CAFO beef probably but I severely doubt that gras grazing beef is worse
weight for weight than humans.

"Direct emissions from agriculture make up between 10 percent and 12
percent of overall greenhouse gas emissions. If you throw in factors
such as fertilizer and chemical production, fuel use and agricultural
land-use change, the proportion rises?along with the uncertainty?to
between 17 percent and 32 percent.

that is regular industrial agriculture and not organic-permaculture!


"Researchers may enhance yields and farmers may use resources more
efficiently, but populations will increase?and so will demand for meat
and dairy products."

The human population exploded thanks to oil. Oil production and human
population graphs follow one another very closely.
Past peak oil...we can only keep people fed by trashing the planet for short
term gain. I can see a breaking point in the not too far distant future and
then populations will crash and so will demand. Just extrapolating graph
lines is oxymoronic.

_______________________________________________
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Livingontheland@lists.ibiblio.org
http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/livingontheland


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Message: 8
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2014 21:15:41 -0600
From: tradingpost <tradingpost@lobo.net>
To: livingontheland@lists.ibiblio.org
Subject: Re: [Livingontheland] How Diet and #Climate Change Are
    IntrinsicallyLinked
Message-ID: <5417AB5D.1070200@lobo.net" href="mailto:5417AB5D.1070200@lobo.net">5417AB5D.1070200@lobo.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed


I agree but those figures do average in pastured beef & all kinds of
agriculture. Also I have no respect for the way "permaculture" has been
bastardized in the U.S.

On 9/15/2014 6:28 PM, John D'hondt wrote:
>
> "beef makes up 4 percent by weight of available food, but 36 percent of
> emissions"
>
> CAFO beef probably but I severely doubt that gras grazing beef is
> worse weight for weight than humans.
>
> "Direct emissions from agriculture make up between 10 percent and 12
> percent of overall greenhouse gas emissions. If you throw in factors
> such as fertilizer and chemical production, fuel use and agricultural
> land-use change, the proportion rises?along with the uncertainty?to
> between 17 percent and 32 percent.
>
> that is regular industrial agriculture and not organic-permaculture!
>
>
> "Researchers may enhance yields and farmers may use resources more
> efficiently, but populations will increase?and so will demand for meat
> and dairy products."
>
> The human population exploded thanks to oil. Oil production and human
> population graphs follow one another very closely.
> Past peak oil...we can only keep people fed by trashing the planet for
> short term gain. I can see a breaking point in the not too far distant
> future and then populations will crash and so will demand. Just
> extrapolating graph lines is oxymoronic.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Livingontheland mailing list
> Livingontheland@lists.ibiblio.org
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/livingontheland
>
>
> ---
> This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus
> protection is active.
> http://www.avast.com
>
> _______________________________________________
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> Livingontheland@lists.ibiblio.org
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/livingontheland



------------------------------

Message: 9
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2014 22:14:38 +0100
From: "John D'hondt" <dhondt@eircom.net>
To: "Healthy soil and sustainable growing"
    <livingontheland@lists.ibiblio.org>
Subject: Re: [Livingontheland] How Diet and #Climate Change
    AreIntrinsicallyLinked
Message-ID: <CA01B5F0A4EF4EEBB31F022BE04C03AA@Targadc5fefe82d>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252";
    reply-type=response


I have been thinking about this for a long time Paul and I have the distict
feeling that blaming "emissions" of 36 % of the grand total on cows is
complete balderdash. A complete lie that does not become more true even if
it is steadily repeated.

- in the first place all herbivores have bacteria inside them that can break
down and make use of cellulose which is a major constituent of plant cells.
Not just cows but elephants, deer, goats and rhinos, sheep and rabbits and
horses have what it takes to break down very resistant plant molecules. If
it were not for these herbivores and their commensal micro fauna and flora
dead plant material would just pile up and stay there forever and life would
grind to a halt. All these herbivores live on a diet in the natural state
that would see us starve very fast if we tried to live on it.
Cows are extremely efficient at breaking down cellulose, more so than deer,
horses or elephants for instance but I doubt very much that they constitute
even 4 % of all herbivores or herbivore biomass (and this includes insects)
on the planet.

- I have lived in close proximity with cattle for now almost 30 years and I
have never experienced a cow pass wind even once. They do burp while
ruminating on average 6 times per hour and they ruminate for on average 8
hours per day. Every burp has a volume of about 250 ml and for a part
consists of the air they swallow while ruminating and that comes back up.
A grand total 4-5 gallons per day?
Take a cow of 400 kg which would be 6-7 average adult humans. It is thought
that an average human passes wind some 7 times per day and the total gas
emissions can be over 3 liters per day which means that the 6-7 humans would
be just beaten in emission production by one cow.
How many humans are there on the planety compared to cows? I think humans
outnumber cattle 5 to 1 so bovine and human emissions would be about the
same.

-the world consumes some 90 million barrels of oil per day leading to some
20 million metric tons of climate altering emissions per day? I won't even
look at burning coal and wood figures to be added to this.
But blaming 36 % of all  emissions on cows is ridiculous and very bad
science.

Further, I am also guilty of bastardizing original permaculture here where I
live. We have to row to the best of our abilities with the oars we have been
given. But I think the general ideas behind permaculture are very sound.

John


I agree but those figures do average in pastured beef & all kinds of
agriculture. Also I have no respect for the way "permaculture" has been
bastardized in the U.S.

On 9/15/2014 6:28 PM, John D'hondt wrote:
>
> "beef makes up 4 percent by weight of available food, but 36 percent of
> emissions"
>
> CAFO beef probably but I severely doubt that gras grazing beef is worse
> weight for weight than humans.
>
> "Direct emissions from agriculture make up between 10 percent and 12
> percent of overall greenhouse gas emissions. If you throw in factors
> such as fertilizer and chemical production, fuel use and agricultural
> land-use change, the proportion rises?along with the uncertainty?to
> between 17 percent and 32 percent.
>
> that is regular industrial agriculture and not organic-permaculture!
>
>
> "Researchers may enhance yields and farmers may use resources more
> efficiently, but populations will increase?and so will demand for meat
> and dairy products."
>
> The human population exploded thanks to oil. Oil production and human
> population graphs follow one another very closely.
> Past peak oil...we can only keep people fed by trashing the planet for
> short term gain. I can see a breaking point in the not too far distant
> future and then populations will crash and so will demand. Just
> extrapolating graph lines is oxymoronic.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Livingontheland mailing list
> Livingontheland@lists.ibiblio.org
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/livingontheland
>
>
> ---
> This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus
> protection is active.
> http://www.avast.com
>
> _______________________________________________
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> Livingontheland@lists.ibiblio.org
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/livingontheland

_______________________________________________
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Livingontheland@lists.ibiblio.org
http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/livingontheland


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------------------------------

Message: 10
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2014 20:30:10 -0600
From: tradingpost <tradingpost@lobo.net>
To: livingontheland@lists.ibiblio.org
Subject: Re: [Livingontheland] How Diet and #Climate Change
    AreIntrinsicallyLinked
Message-ID: <5418F232.8070007@lobo.net" href="mailto:5418F232.8070007@lobo.net">5418F232.8070007@lobo.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed


First let me agree the permaculture principles are sound; it's what the
money grubbing "certified" teachers have done to it. $900 US to listen
to somebody talk for a week, then you get a certificate! & then you can
put on your own seminars & charge $900, as they advertize, all without
actually doing any growing or homesteading of any kind. They even
copywrited the word "Permaculture" to be able to sue anybody using it
without their royalties.  BTW Mollison feels the same way. And he wrote
the book on it.

Second, I believe the emissions they refer to include ALL the fossil
fuel use that goes into the grain growing, equipment, feeding, watering,
& transporting & finishing beef for market with CAFOs that make up the
vast majority of beef production in this country. Not cow farts.

On 9/16/2014 3:14 PM, John D'hondt wrote:
>
> I have been thinking about this for a long time Paul and I have the
> distict feeling that blaming "emissions" of 36 % of the grand total on
> cows is complete balderdash. A complete lie that does not become more
> true even if it is steadily repeated.
>
> - in the first place all herbivores have bacteria inside them that can
> break down and make use of cellulose which is a major constituent of
> plant cells. Not just cows but elephants, deer, goats and rhinos,
> sheep and rabbits and horses have what it takes to break down very
> resistant plant molecules. If it were not for these herbivores and
> their commensal micro fauna and flora dead plant material would just
> pile up and stay there forever and life would grind to a halt. All
> these herbivores live on a diet in the natural state that would see us
> starve very fast if we tried to live on it.
> Cows are extremely efficient at breaking down cellulose, more so than
> deer, horses or elephants for instance but I doubt very much that they
> constitute even 4 % of all herbivores or herbivore biomass (and this
> includes insects) on the planet.
>
> - I have lived in close proximity with cattle for now almost 30 years
> and I have never experienced a cow pass wind even once. They do burp
> while ruminating on average 6 times per hour and they ruminate for on
> average 8 hours per day. Every burp has a volume of about 250 ml and
> for a part consists of the air they swallow while ruminating and that
> comes back up.
> A grand total 4-5 gallons per day?
> Take a cow of 400 kg which would be 6-7 average adult humans. It is
> thought that an average human passes wind some 7 times per day and the
> total gas emissions can be over 3 liters per day which means that the
> 6-7 humans would be just beaten in emission production by one cow.
> How many humans are there on the planety compared to cows? I think
> humans outnumber cattle 5 to 1 so bovine and human emissions would be
> about the same.
>
> -the world consumes some 90 million barrels of oil per day leading to
> some 20 million metric tons of climate altering emissions per day? I
> won't even look at burning coal and wood figures to be added to this.
> But blaming 36 % of all  emissions on cows is ridiculous and very bad
> science.
>
> Further, I am also guilty of bastardizing original permaculture here
> where I live. We have to row to the best of our abilities with the
> oars we have been given. But I think the general ideas behind
> permaculture are very sound.
>
> John
>
>
> I agree but those figures do average in pastured beef & all kinds of
> agriculture. Also I have no respect for the way "permaculture" has been
> bastardized in the U.S.
>
> On 9/15/2014 6:28 PM, John D'hondt wrote:
>>
>> "beef makes up 4 percent by weight of available food, but 36 percent of
>> emissions"
>>
>> CAFO beef probably but I severely doubt that gras grazing beef is
>> worse weight for weight than humans.
>>
>> "Direct emissions from agriculture make up between 10 percent and 12
>> percent of overall greenhouse gas emissions. If you throw in factors
>> such as fertilizer and chemical production, fuel use and agricultural
>> land-use change, the proportion rises?along with the uncertainty?to
>> between 17 percent and 32 percent.
>>
>> that is regular industrial agriculture and not organic-permaculture!
>>
>>
>> "Researchers may enhance yields and farmers may use resources more
>> efficiently, but populations will increase?and so will demand for meat
>> and dairy products."
>>
>> The human population exploded thanks to oil. Oil production and human
>> population graphs follow one another very closely.
>> Past peak oil...we can only keep people fed by trashing the planet
>> for short term gain. I can see a breaking point in the not too far
>> distant future and then populations will crash and so will demand.
>> Just extrapolating graph lines is oxymoronic.



------------------------------

Message: 11
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2014 20:42:36 +0100
From: "John D'hondt" <dhondt@eircom.net>
To: "Healthy soil and sustainable growing"
    <livingontheland@lists.ibiblio.org>
Subject: Re: [Livingontheland] How Diet and #Climate
    ChangeAreIntrinsicallyLinked
Message-ID: <FDFD51769A574507971A70D7453F19A5@Targadc5fefe82d>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252";
    reply-type=response


First let me agree the permaculture principles are sound; it's what the
money grubbing "certified" teachers have done to it. $900 US to listen
to somebody talk for a week, then you get a certificate! & then you can
put on your own seminars & charge $900, as they advertize, all without
actually doing any growing or homesteading of any kind. They even
copywrited the word "Permaculture" to be able to sue anybody using it
without their royalties.  BTW Mollison feels the same way. And he wrote
the book on it.

<Yes, unfortunately the world is full of money grabbing varmints. In my book
the only justification for being alive is trying to make this a better
world. And making money from someone elses ideas does not fit in there. I'm
not even sure that making money from your own ideas is so great. Invent a
new super efficient engine or a new way of free energy and try to patent it
and chances are you will find yourself killed by the vested interests who
don't want to loose out on their old ways of raping the planet.
So far I have only made minor inventions, mostly to do with plant and animal
diseases and I have always given them away for free to anybody showing an
interest. If I should come up with a potentially rich making new something
you will be able to read all about it on line shortly afterwards for free.

Second, I believe the emissions they refer to include ALL the fossil
fuel use that goes into the grain growing, equipment, feeding, watering,
& transporting & finishing beef for market with CAFOs that make up the
vast majority of beef production in this country. Not cow farts.

< OK and I agree that that is sick. Cows have adapted to a food that is
useless to us and that we can't digest and that is the only food we have
ever given them. Feeding them grain makes them a different animal altogether
and not very good for human consumption. They then develop E. coli H157 in
their digestive tracts that can be easily deadly to people and they lack
omega 3 fats to name but a few differences.
We happen to live in a country that grows gras better than anything else and
it makes sense to keep cattle on such land. We don't need grain, equipment,
not a lot of transport (and a good bit of this by horse cart) and the cattle
finish themselves by the end of summer when they look round and happy and
with have a gleaming coat. We do need to feed silage and hay during winter
but the energy this costs is much less than people driving to town every day
to go shopping. Feeding cattle in winter is all hand work for us. Also with
our way of rearing cattle a sick animal is something we don't see often at
all. I can't remember when we last had to call in a vet.

John

On 9/16/2014 3:14 PM, John D'hondt wrote:
>
> I have been thinking about this for a long time Paul and I have the
> distict feeling that blaming "emissions" of 36 % of the grand total on
> cows is complete balderdash. A complete lie that does not become more true
> even if it is steadily repeated.
>
> - in the first place all herbivores have bacteria inside them that can
> break down and make use of cellulose which is a major constituent of plant
> cells. Not just cows but elephants, deer, goats and rhinos, sheep and
> rabbits and horses have what it takes to break down very resistant plant
> molecules. If it were not for these herbivores and their commensal micro
> fauna and flora dead plant material would just pile up and stay there
> forever and life would grind to a halt. All these herbivores live on a
> diet in the natural state that would see us starve very fast if we tried
> to live on it.
> Cows are extremely efficient at breaking down cellulose, more so than
> deer, horses or elephants for instance but I doubt very much that they
> constitute even 4 % of all herbivores or herbivore biomass (and this
> includes insects) on the planet.
>
> - I have lived in close proximity with cattle for now almost 30 years and
> I have never experienced a cow pass wind even once. They do burp while
> ruminating on average 6 times per hour and they ruminate for on average 8
> hours per day. Every burp has a volume of about 250 ml and for a part
> consists of the air they swallow while ruminating and that comes back up.
> A grand total 4-5 gallons per day?
> Take a cow of 400 kg which would be 6-7 average adult humans. It is
> thought that an average human passes wind some 7 times per day and the
> total gas emissions can be over 3 liters per day which means that the 6-7
> humans would be just beaten in emission production by one cow.
> How many humans are there on the planety compared to cows? I think humans
> outnumber cattle 5 to 1 so bovine and human emissions would be about the
> same.
>
> -the world consumes some 90 million barrels of oil per day leading to some
> 20 million metric tons of climate altering emissions per day? I won't even
> look at burning coal and wood figures to be added to this.
> But blaming 36 % of all  emissions on cows is ridiculous and very bad
> science.
>
> Further, I am also guilty of bastardizing original permaculture here where
> I live. We have to row to the best of our abilities with the oars we have
> been given. But I think the general ideas behind permaculture are very
> sound.
>
> John
>
>
> I agree but those figures do average in pastured beef & all kinds of
> agriculture. Also I have no respect for the way "permaculture" has been
> bastardized in the U.S.
>
> On 9/15/2014 6:28 PM, John D'hondt wrote:
>>
>> "beef makes up 4 percent by weight of available food, but 36 percent of
>> emissions"
>>
>> CAFO beef probably but I severely doubt that gras grazing beef is worse
>> weight for weight than humans.
>>
>> "Direct emissions from agriculture make up between 10 percent and 12
>> percent of overall greenhouse gas emissions. If you throw in factors
>> such as fertilizer and chemical production, fuel use and agricultural
>> land-use change, the proportion rises?along with the uncertainty?to
>> between 17 percent and 32 percent.
>>
>> that is regular industrial agriculture and not organic-permaculture!
>>
>>
>> "Researchers may enhance yields and farmers may use resources more
>> efficiently, but populations will increase?and so will demand for meat
>> and dairy products."
>>
>> The human population exploded thanks to oil. Oil production and human
>> population graphs follow one another very closely.
>> Past peak oil...we can only keep people fed by trashing the planet for
>> short term gain. I can see a breaking point in the not too far distant
>> future and then populations will crash and so will demand. Just
>> extrapolating graph lines is oxymoronic.

_______________________________________________
Livingontheland mailing list
Livingontheland@lists.ibiblio.org
http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/livingontheland


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Message: 12
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2014 14:02:25 -0600
From: tradingpost <tradingpost@lobo.net>
To: livingontheland@lists.ibiblio.org
Subject: Re: [Livingontheland] How Diet and #Climate
    ChangeAreIntrinsicallyLinked
Message-ID: <5419E8D1.1080904@lobo.net" href="mailto:5419E8D1.1080904@lobo.net">5419E8D1.1080904@lobo.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed


I had forgotten about all those problems with grain diets for cows.
Serious problems for those who eat cows.

On 9/17/2014 1:42 PM, John D'hondt wrote:
>
> First let me agree the permaculture principles are sound; it's what the
> money grubbing "certified" teachers have done to it. $900 US to listen
> to somebody talk for a week, then you get a certificate! & then you can
> put on your own seminars & charge $900, as they advertize, all without
> actually doing any growing or homesteading of any kind. They even
> copywrited the word "Permaculture" to be able to sue anybody using it
> without their royalties.  BTW Mollison feels the same way. And he wrote
> the book on it.
>
> <Yes, unfortunately the world is full of money grabbing varmints. In
> my book the only justification for being alive is trying to make this
> a better world. And making money from someone elses ideas does not fit
> in there. I'm not even sure that making money from your own ideas is
> so great. Invent a new super efficient engine or a new way of free
> energy and try to patent it and chances are you will find yourself
> killed by the vested interests who don't want to loose out on their
> old ways of raping the planet.
> So far I have only made minor inventions, mostly to do with plant and
> animal diseases and I have always given them away for free to anybody
> showing an interest. If I should come up with a potentially rich
> making new something you will be able to read all about it on line
> shortly afterwards for free.
>
> Second, I believe the emissions they refer to include ALL the fossil
> fuel use that goes into the grain growing, equipment, feeding, watering,
> & transporting & finishing beef for market with CAFOs that make up the
> vast majority of beef production in this country. Not cow farts.
>
> < OK and I agree that that is sick. Cows have adapted to a food that
> is useless to us and that we can't digest and that is the only food we
> have ever given them. Feeding them grain makes them a different animal
> altogether and not very good for human consumption. They then develop
> E. coli H157 in their digestive tracts that can be easily deadly to
> people and they lack omega 3 fats to name but a few differences.
> We happen to live in a country that grows gras better than anything
> else and it makes sense to keep cattle on such land. We don't need
> grain, equipment, not a lot of transport (and a good bit of this by
> horse cart) and the cattle finish themselves by the end of summer when
> they look round and happy and with have a gleaming coat. We do need to
> feed silage and hay during winter but the energy this costs is much
> less than people driving to town every day to go shopping. Feeding
> cattle in winter is all hand work for us. Also with our way of rearing
> cattle a sick animal is something we don't see often at all. I can't
> remember when we last had to call in a vet.
>
> John
>
> On 9/16/2014 3:14 PM, John D'hondt wrote:
>>
>> I have been thinking about this for a long time Paul and I have the
>> distict feeling that blaming "emissions" of 36 % of the grand total
>> on cows is complete balderdash. A complete lie that does not become
>> more true even if it is steadily repeated.
>>
>> - in the first place all herbivores have bacteria inside them that
>> can break down and make use of cellulose which is a major constituent
>> of plant cells. Not just cows but elephants, deer, goats and rhinos,
>> sheep and rabbits and horses have what it takes to break down very
>> resistant plant molecules. If it were not for these herbivores and
>> their commensal micro fauna and flora dead plant material would just
>> pile up and stay there forever and life would grind to a halt. All
>> these herbivores live on a diet in the natural state that would see
>> us starve very fast if we tried to live on it.
>> Cows are extremely efficient at breaking down cellulose, more so than
>> deer, horses or elephants for instance but I doubt very much that
>> they constitute even 4 % of all herbivores or herbivore biomass (and
>> this includes insects) on the planet.
>>
>> - I have lived in close proximity with cattle for now almost 30 years
>> and I have never experienced a cow pass wind even once. They do burp
>> while ruminating on average 6 times per hour and they ruminate for on
>> average 8 hours per day. Every burp has a volume of about 250 ml and
>> for a part consists of the air they swallow while ruminating and that
>> comes back up.
>> A grand total 4-5 gallons per day?
>> Take a cow of 400 kg which would be 6-7 average adult humans. It is
>> thought that an average human passes wind some 7 times per day and
>> the total gas emissions can be over 3 liters per day which means that
>> the 6-7 humans would be just beaten in emission production by one cow.
>> How many humans are there on the planety compared to cows? I think
>> humans outnumber cattle 5 to 1 so bovine and human emissions would be
>> about the same.
>>
>> -the world consumes some 90 million barrels of oil per day leading to
>> some 20 million metric tons of climate altering emissions per day? I
>> won't even look at burning coal and wood figures to be added to this.
>> But blaming 36 % of all  emissions on cows is ridiculous and very bad
>> science.
>>
>> Further, I am also guilty of bastardizing original permaculture here
>> where I live. We have to row to the best of our abilities with the
>> oars we have been given. But I think the general ideas behind
>> permaculture are very sound.
>>
>> John



------------------------------

Message: 13
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2014 00:41:05 +0100
From: "John D'hondt" <dhondt@eircom.net>
To: "Healthy soil and sustainable growing"
    <livingontheland@lists.ibiblio.org>
Subject: Re: [Livingontheland] How Diet and
    #ClimateChangeAreIntrinsicallyLinked
Message-ID: <47408117736842DDB0229B3E9FC838D9@Targadc5fefe82d>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
    reply-type=response


> I had forgotten about all those problems with grain diets for cows.
> Serious problems for those who eat cows.

Serious problems for those who eat Cafo cows or other intensively reared
meat, be it chicken, turkey or lamb. Buy chicken these days and chances are
you are eating something that hatched out of an egg little more than a month
before. Our own chicks take almost a year before they are big enough to be
worthy of being eaten. (by that time they can outrun most foxes and can fly
up to the roof of the house) Same with everything. Most lamb here weighs 40
kilos after just 4 months of shed rearing. Our own outside lamb will be
about half that weight by then.
Our dogs know the difference well. They refuse to eat shop bought chicken
(we had a whole box dropped in by a friend) but they fight over the scraps
from our table. They are never sick and they can bring an animal or a human
5 times their weight to the ground without having to bite.
John

,>
> On 9/17/2014 1:42 PM, John D'hondt wrote:
>>
>> First let me agree the permaculture principles are sound; it's what the
>> money grubbing "certified" teachers have done to it. $900 US to listen
>> to somebody talk for a week, then you get a certificate! & then you can
>> put on your own seminars & charge $900, as they advertize, all without
>> actually doing any growing or homesteading of any kind. They even
>> copywrited the word "Permaculture" to be able to sue anybody using it
>> without their royalties.  BTW Mollison feels the same way. And he wrote
>> the book on it.
>>
>> <Yes, unfortunately the world is full of money grabbing varmints. In my
>> book the only justification for being alive is trying to make this a
>> better world. And making money from someone elses ideas does not fit in
>> there. I'm not even sure that making money from your own ideas is so
>> great. Invent a new super efficient engine or a new way of free energy
>> and try to patent it and chances are you will find yourself killed by the
>> vested interests who don't want to loose out on their old ways of raping
>> the planet.
>> So far I have only made minor inventions, mostly to do with plant and
>> animal diseases and I have always given them away for free to anybody
>> showing an interest. If I should come up with a potentially rich making
>> new something you will be able to read all about it on line shortly
>> afterwards for free.
>>
>> Second, I believe the emissions they refer to include ALL the fossil
>> fuel use that goes into the grain growing, equipment, feeding, watering,
>> & transporting & finishing beef for market with CAFOs that make up the
>> vast majority of beef production in this country. Not cow farts.
>>
>> < OK and I agree that that is sick. Cows have adapted to a food that is
>> useless to us and that we can't digest and that is the only food we have
>> ever given them. Feeding them grain makes them a different animal
>> altogether and not very good for human consumption. They then develop E.
>> coli H157 in their digestive tracts that can be easily deadly to people
>> and they lack omega 3 fats to name but a few differences.
>> We happen to live in a country that grows gras better than anything else
>> and it makes sense to keep cattle on such land. We don't need grain,
>> equipment, not a lot of transport (and a good bit of this by horse cart)
>> and the cattle finish themselves by the end of summer when they look
>> round and happy and with have a gleaming coat. We do need to feed silage
>> and hay during winter but the energy this costs is much less than people
>> driving to town every day to go shopping. Feeding cattle in winter is all
>> hand work for us. Also with our way of rearing cattle a sick animal is
>> something we don't see often at all. I can't remember when we last had to
>> call in a vet.
>>
>> John
>>
>> On 9/16/2014 3:14 PM, John D'hondt wrote:
>>>
>>> I have been thinking about this for a long time Paul and I have the
>>> distict feeling that blaming "emissions" of 36 % of the grand total on
>>> cows is complete balderdash. A complete lie that does not become more
>>> true even if it is steadily repeated.
>>>
>>> - in the first place all herbivores have bacteria inside them that can
>>> break down and make use of cellulose which is a major constituent of
>>> plant cells. Not just cows but elephants, deer, goats and rhinos, sheep
>>> and rabbits and horses have what it takes to break down very resistant
>>> plant molecules. If it were not for these herbivores and their commensal
>>> micro fauna and flora dead plant material would just pile up and stay
>>> there forever and life would grind to a halt. All these herbivores live
>>> on a diet in the natural state that would see us starve very fast if we
>>> tried to live on it.
>>> Cows are extremely efficient at breaking down cellulose, more so than
>>> deer, horses or elephants for instance but I doubt very much that they
>>> constitute even 4 % of all herbivores or herbivore biomass (and this
>>> includes insects) on the planet.
>>>
>>> - I have lived in close proximity with cattle for now almost 30 years
>>> and I have never experienced a cow pass wind even once. They do burp
>>> while ruminating on average 6 times per hour and they ruminate for on
>>> average 8 hours per day. Every burp has a volume of about 250 ml and for
>>> a part consists of the air they swallow while ruminating and that comes
>>> back up.
>>> A grand total 4-5 gallons per day?
>>> Take a cow of 400 kg which would be 6-7 average adult humans. It is
>>> thought that an average human passes wind some 7 times per day and the
>>> total gas emissions can be over 3 liters per day which means that the
>>> 6-7 humans would be just beaten in emission production by one cow.
>>> How many humans are there on the planety compared to cows? I think
>>> humans outnumber cattle 5 to 1 so bovine and human emissions would be
>>> about the same.
>>>
>>> -the world consumes some 90 million barrels of oil per day leading to
>>> some 20 million metric tons of climate altering emissions per day? I
>>> won't even look at burning coal and wood figures to be added to this.
>>> But blaming 36 % of all  emissions on cows is ridiculous and very bad
>>> science.
>>>
>>> Further, I am also guilty of bastardizing original permaculture here
>>> where I live. We have to row to the best of our abilities with the oars
>>> we have been given. But I think the general ideas behind permaculture
>>> are very sound.
>>>
>>> John
>
> _______________________________________________
> Livingontheland mailing list
> Livingontheland@lists.ibiblio.org
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/livingontheland
>


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------------------------------

Message: 14
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2014 07:03:38 -0600
From: tradingpost <tradingpost@lobo.net>
To: livingontheland@lists.ibiblio.org
Subject: [Livingontheland] Arctic Greenhouse Grows Greens Year-Round
Message-ID: <541AD82A.3050709@lobo.net" href="mailto:541AD82A.3050709@lobo.net">541AD82A.3050709@lobo.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

Arctic Greenhouse Grows Greens Year-Round

http://foodtank.com/news/2014/09/iyff-arctic-greenhouse-grows-greens-year-round


------------------------------

Message: 15
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2014 08:05:38 -0600
From: tradingpost <tradingpost@lobo.net>
To: livingontheland@lists.ibiblio.org
Subject: [Livingontheland] Small Farmers Can Cool the Planet.
Message-ID: <541AE6B2.6060201@lobo.net" href="mailto:541AE6B2.6060201@lobo.net">541AE6B2.6060201@lobo.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; Format="flowed"


Small Farmers Can Cool the Planet.
http://www.organicconsumers.org/articles/article_30945.cfm

"We can reverse climate change by sequestering several hundred billion
tons of excess CO2 using the "tools" we already have at hand:
regenerative, organic farming, ranching and land use. And we can make
this world-changing transition by mobilizing a vast green corps of
farmers, ranchers, gardeners, consumers, climate activists and
conservationists to begin the monumental task of moving the Carbon
Behemoth safely back underground."


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------------------------------

Message: 16
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2014 00:13:57 +0100
From: "John D'hondt" <dhondt@eircom.net>
To: "Healthy soil and sustainable growing"
    <livingontheland@lists.ibiblio.org>
Subject: Re: [Livingontheland] Arctic Greenhouse Grows Greens
    Year-Round
Message-ID: <7024C2570C524B5B88477B56270479F1@Targadc5fefe82d>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
    reply-type=response


Any idea what plants there are in that greenhouse in the picture Paul? They
almost look like rose bushes to me but it could be something completely
different.
John

> Arctic Greenhouse Grows Greens Year-Round
>
> http://foodtank.com/news/2014/09/iyff-arctic-greenhouse-grows-greens-year-round
> _______________________________________________
> Livingontheland mailing list
> Livingontheland@lists.ibiblio.org
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/livingontheland
>


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Message: 17
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2014 17:14:34 -0600
From: tradingpost <tradingpost@lobo.net>
To: livingontheland@lists.ibiblio.org
Subject: Re: [Livingontheland] Arctic Greenhouse Grows Greens
    Year-Round
Message-ID: <541B675A.1030808@lobo.net" href="mailto:541B675A.1030808@lobo.net">541B675A.1030808@lobo.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed


Nope, puzzled me too. But then we all need to grow what grows well under
whatever conditions we can manage

On 9/18/2014 5:13 PM, John D'hondt wrote:
>
> Any idea what plants there are in that greenhouse in the picture Paul?
> They almost look like rose bushes to me but it could be something
> completely different.
> John
>
>> Arctic Greenhouse Grows Greens Year-Round
>>
>> http://foodtank.com/news/2014/09/iyff-arctic-greenhouse-grows-greens-year-round
>>
>> ______________



------------------------------

Message: 18
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2014 00:26:46 +0100
From: "John D'hondt" <dhondt@eircom.net>
To: "Healthy soil and sustainable growing"
    <livingontheland@lists.ibiblio.org>
Subject: Re: [Livingontheland] Small Farmers Can Cool the Planet.
Message-ID: <D8F117C4D464452A8FB771EA9DBAC3A5@Targadc5fefe82d>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

That AND stopping deforestation would see us right.
John
  ----- Small Farmers Can Cool the Planet.
  http://www.organicconsumers.org/articles/article_30945.cfm

      "We can reverse climate change by sequestering several hundred billion tons of excess CO2 using the "tools" we already have at hand: regenerative, organic farming, ranching and land use. And we can make this world-changing transition by mobilizing a vast green corps of farmers, ranchers, gardeners, consumers, climate activists and conservationists to begin the monumental task of moving the Carbon Behemoth safely back underground."





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  Livingontheland@lists.ibiblio.org
  http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/livingontheland


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------------------------------

Message: 19
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2014 01:03:22 +0100
From: "John D'hondt" <dhondt@eircom.net>
To: "Healthy soil and sustainable growing"
    <livingontheland@lists.ibiblio.org>
Subject: Re: [Livingontheland] Arctic Greenhouse Grows Greens
    Year-Round
Message-ID: <3F94CFA4A6924D5798680E5A3522A258@Targadc5fefe82d>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
    reply-type=response


True and exactly for that reason I am seriously curious.
john

>
> Nope, puzzled me too. But then we all need to grow what grows well under
> whatever conditions we can manage
>
> On 9/18/2014 5:13 PM, John D'hondt wrote:
>>
>> Any idea what plants there are in that greenhouse in the picture Paul?
>> They almost look like rose bushes to me but it could be something
>> completely different.
>> John
>>
>>> Arctic Greenhouse Grows Greens Year-Round
>>>
>>> http://foodtank.com/news/2014/09/iyff-arctic-greenhouse-grows-greens-year-round
>>> ______________
>
> _______________________________________________
> Livingontheland mailing list
> Livingontheland@lists.ibiblio.org
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/livingontheland
>


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Message: 20
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2014 07:29:29 -0600
From: tradingpost <tradingpost@lobo.net>
To: livingontheland@lists.ibiblio.org
Subject: [Livingontheland] How Ecological Farming Builds Resilience to
    #Climate Change
Message-ID: <541C2FB9.9030206@lobo.net" href="mailto:541C2FB9.9030206@lobo.net">541C2FB9.9030206@lobo.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

How Ecological Farming Builds Resilience to #Climate Change
http://ecowatch.com/2014/03/31/ecological-farming-resilience-climate-change/

Small Scale, Big Impact: How to Improve Nutrition Through Small Scale
Agriculture
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/larissa-pelham/nutrition-small-scale-agriculture_b_3207354.html?utm_hp_ref=tw



------------------------------

Message: 21
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2014 11:54:15 -0600
From: tradingpost <tradingpost@lobo.net>
To: livingontheland@lists.ibiblio.org
Subject: [Livingontheland] Why ?get big? isn?t the answer for poor
    farmers around the globe
Message-ID: <54206247.5080708@lobo.net" href="mailto:54206247.5080708@lobo.net">54206247.5080708@lobo.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed


Why ?get big? isn?t the answer for poor farmers around the globe

http://grist.org/food/why-get-big-isnt-the-answer-for-poor-farmers-around-the-globe/?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_term=Daily%2520Sept%252022&utm_campaign=daily



------------------------------

Message: 22
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2014 20:15:45 +0100
From: "John D'hondt" <dhondt@eircom.net>
To: "Healthy soil and sustainable growing"
    <livingontheland@lists.ibiblio.org>
Subject: Re: [Livingontheland] Why ?get big? isn?t the answer for poor
    farmers around the globe
Message-ID: <B2EECE9E1A8A4D298505C0FAC22A64ED@Targadc5fefe82d>
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Maybe it is not even the answer for so called rich farmers. There is a big
dairy farmer not too far from us with over 300 milking cows. We recently
heard there is 600 euros of debt on every one of these cows.
John

Why ?get big? isn?t the answer for poor farmers around the globe

http://grist.org/food/why-get-big-isnt-the-answer-for-poor-farmers-around-the-globe/?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_term=Daily%2520Sept%252022&utm_campaign=daily

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Message: 23
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2014 19:39:29 -0600
From: tradingpost <tradingpost@lobo.net>
To: livingontheland@lists.ibiblio.org
Subject: [Livingontheland] Menu for a Hot Planet (wrong in so many
    ways)
Message-ID: <5424C3D1.1030704@lobo.net" href="mailto:5424C3D1.1030704@lobo.net">5424C3D1.1030704@lobo.net>
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anyone want to punch holes in this? before I do

Menu for a Hot Planet (wrong in so many ways)
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/john-feffer/menu-for-a-hot-planet_b_5881068.html



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End of Livingontheland Digest, Vol 448, Issue 1
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  • Re: [Livingontheland] Livingontheland Digest, Vol 448, Issue 1, Kelly Bauer, 09/30/2014

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