Healthy soil and sustainable growing

["Tradingpost" <tradingpost@lobo.net>]

I see what you've answered to Ken there, but I'm going to throw cold water on 
it. You want to grow several acres of organic vegetables, but you don't have 
the equipment for that much area, you don't want to use manure, you don't 
have the rainfall for cover crops to build soil OM, and you can't take it out 
of production to build soil. I'd say you've answered all the questions. 
You're asking how to do it when all options are ruled out in advance.

So you're dryland farming acres of vegetables conventionally, using 
machinery, fertilizers, and probably herbicides and pesticides, without 
replenishing organic matter in the soil, losing topsoil to wind erosion, and 
most likely your costs are eating up your sales. I'd sell out and move 
somewhere better for growing. There are plenty of places in this country 
where people simply shouldn't farm at all. Farming in those places just 
degrades the soil and bankrupts the farmer.

paul tradingpost@lobo.net

*********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********

On 7/3/2008 at 8:41 AM mcoldiron wrote:

>Now we're getting down to it.  My answers are green italics.
>  ----- Original Message -----
>  From: Ken Hargesheimer
>  To: mcoldiron
>  Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2008 7:30 AM
>  Subject: Re: [Livingontheland] Future Organic Farmers of America
>
>
>
>
>        --- On Wed, 7/2/08, mcoldiron <mcoldiron@crcom.net> wrote:
>
>          Sorry Ken, but this is "dry land farming".  No water available
>drip or otherwise.  Without water, no growing.
>          Well Ken, I've been growing veggies "dry land" for years.  It's
>just not organic.
>
>          Sorry, can't bring "organic matter" in.  Nothing available that
>I know of.  What did you have in mind and where can I get it? Even if it
>were available, what would I use to haul it in and if it were delivered,
>how would I spread it out?  You are in cotton country.  Cotton burrs make
>very poor compost but use it for mulch.  Horse stables in the area?
>Wonderful stuff and free.   This just isn't the case.  Cotton burs are
>loaded with weed seeds.  It makes a huge mess in the field unless you use
>a lot of herbicide.  I was going to compost some burs earlier this year,
>since the gin is only a few miles away, but COULD NOT get them to deliver
>any, no matter what I offered to pay.  They were only giving it out to the
>people who either, gin at their facility or are part owners.
>          Cow manure is available if I take my tractor with a loader to
>the auction barns and rent a truck to load it into.  But manure has
>problems with seeds too.  It must be composted.  Also, manure has a lot of
>salt in it and will salt out your land very quickly.  Besides, these
>things are NOT organic.  Cotton burs have all kinds of chemicals in them.
>Manure does too.  No organic burs or manure I know of around here.
>
>          Don't know what I could grow for mulch after the normal crop to
>leave until next year or what I could grow before I plant earlier in the
>spring.  Suggestions?  Don't forget, not water again?  Nothing because of
>no water.  I am sure a lot of rain runs off the land but increasing the
>organic matter will keep it there.  My beds have 0 runoff even if I leave
>a hose running all night or we get a downpour.  Guess that's the question,
>how can I get organic matter into the soil to hold the water and increase
>fertility?  Even if I had some in a pile, how would I put it on land and
>how do I spread it around?
>
>          Also, I can't use regular fertilizer for the mulch crop, or the
>regular crop for that matter, so what should I fertilize it with?  I
>haven't found organic fertilizer around here?  Not sure how many tons per
>acre it would take, but how would I get it here or spread that around?
>Suggestions?    I rarely fertilizer.  Have used cottonseed meal for N.  No
>organic CSM available anywhere.  Ideally, use legumes for the cover crop.
>I'd use non organic cotton seed meal if I could find it in quantity at a
>reasonable price.  Any sorces you'd like to share?  Legumes are nice, but
>can't plant them early enough to mature before planting time and can't
>plant them late enough to mature before cold weather.  Would have to take
>the field out of production.
>
>          I've heard of knocking some things like wheat or oats down for
>mulch, but again how do I knock it down and how do I plant without buying
>a different kind of planter?  That kind of mulch will just pile up on a
>normal planter.  No-till row-crop planters, no-till vegetable planters,
>no-till drills are available.  Crimper or mower for knocking it down.
>www.newfarm.org It's only money.
>
>          Hope you can answer some of these questions.  I'd love to grow
>organic.  Have been looking for a way to do the things you talk about for
>years.  Water you cannot do anything about.  Bring in OM. I would use
>permanent beds.  20% of the land would be in walkways and that saves 20%
>of the water, seed, etc but yields will actually increase.  How do I go
>about that on several acres.  Any practical advice on how to manage
>permanent beds on that scale?  What's OM?
>
>          Thanks
>          TxBeeFarmer (Mark)
>          West Texas Zone 7b
>
>
>
>          ----- Original Message -----
>            From: Ken Hargesheimer
>            To: Healthy soil and sustainable growing ; mcoldiron
>            Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2008 7:43 PM
>            Subject: Re: [Livingontheland] Future Organic Farmers of
>America
>
>
>                  Mark,
>
>
>
>                  The principles are the same whether in a garden or a
>farm. It is just a matter of scale. It can be done by hand or using small
>tractor and equipment.  People are doing it.  Use drip irrigation.
>
>
>
>                  The solution to your soil problem is simple. Add organic
>matter.  Either grow it and leave it on top of the ground or bring it in.
>
>
>
>                  Ken
>
>
>                   I'm not too far from you, about 90 miles south.  I'm a
>dry land farmer in cotton country.  I have been trying to work my way into
>organic vegetable farming for around 7 years - and believe you me, I have
>tried.  The biggest problems I face are equipment, material availability,
>and man power.  Oh sure I could grow a little postage stamp garden
>organically, but to supply local stores and farmers' markets is a whole
>nother ball park.  Insects, weeds, soil fertility, and the like all have
>to be managed somehow and if you can't find what you need, at a reasonable
>price, whatcha gona do?  Small garden techniques just can't be used.  I've
>tried to get what I need to go organic and borders on impossible.  Maybe
>it's because I live on the ragged fringes of civilization that makes it so
>hard.  I'd love to hear how you can grow more than a hand full of veggies
>organically around here.  I did notice that much of you wording revolved
>around  the prefix "mini".  Maybe that's what we need first, the materials
>to grow more than a small plot.  We need an organic farming infrastructure
>first.  You can't build much more than a small wood shed without a strong
>foundation.
>
>
>                    My two cents.
>
>                    TxBeeFarmer (Mark)
>                    West Texas Zone 7b
>
>
>
>
>
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