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livingontheland - Re: [Livingontheland] Efficiency

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Subject: Healthy soil and sustainable growing

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  • From: "Phil Bunch" <pbunch@cox.net>
  • To: "'Healthy soil and sustainable growing'" <livingontheland@lists.ibiblio.org>
  • Subject: Re: [Livingontheland] Efficiency
  • Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2007 13:58:34 -0800

The only other natural populations that act like recent humankind are
microorganisms such as yeasts in a piece of fermenting fruit or other rich
source of nutrients. They develop high populations quickly and use up their
resources rapidly. Then they die off massively.

-----Original Message-----
From: livingontheland-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org
[mailto:livingontheland-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of
activism98201@verizon.net
Sent: Monday, December 24, 2007 11:49 AM
To: livingontheland@lists.ibiblio.org
Subject: Re: [Livingontheland] Efficiency

Ryan, you can disagree all you want, but I'm afraid that this doesn't,
regardless of how you think or would like things to be, change the facts.

Per point 1 - "Does it scale?" No. It doesn't scale because it's not
sustainable. The current paradigm, which IS about transportation, doesn't
scale without oil (cheap energy).

Per point 2 - "Is there anything in nature that is similar?" No. In
millions of years nature has created ZERO systems such as we currently have
developed.

And point 3 - Jevons Paradox holds true, proof is that all of our natural
resources are in serious decline owing to our ability to efficiently exploit
them.

This group is about sustainability. The systems that we're currently
operating with, of which transportation IS an integral part of, are not
about sustainability (they're about exploitation). No matter how efficient
you make these systems they will NEVER be sustainable.

As Paul pointed out, we're externalizing a bunch of the costs of our
"efficiencies." As global climate change starts to laugh at us I have to
wonder how smug we'll be about being so damned "efficient."


Seasoned Eatings!

-Mark Nagel
Everett, WA


=====================
From: Ryan Albinger <ryalbinger@earthlink.net>

Does LESS transporation mean we can't move further than the distance we can
move product to market by foot? The way I see it, some people have the
idea than driving closer to market is ALWAYS more efficient than effciencly
moving it whereever the market leads even if it takes less energy per unit.

I respectfully disagree that the current mess is all about transportation.
Transportation is only a headache to any business, but any time the
business requires product to move past the front door, transportation is a
nessacery evil. And if you have run the trucking numbers like I have for
my business, I could have my own truck on the road year round and still not
compete with prices the larger firms are willing to do it for on an as need
basis.

Merry Christmas.

Ryan


> [Original Message]
> From: <activism98201@verizon.net>
> To: Healthy soil and sustainable growing
<livingontheland@lists.ibiblio.org>; <ryalbinger@earthlink.net>
> Date: 12/24/2007 12:12:58 PM
> Subject: Re: [Livingontheland] Efficiency
>
> Efficiency is relative; plus, it's mostly a red herring.
>
> The current mess of a system is ALL about transportation. It's how the
rulers control us: they skim off all the transactions occurring
from/through transportation (exchange); the more of it going on, the more
they can skim (think about the Banksters and their volume of transactions
that they get in the middle of).
>
> Before anyone thinks about efficiency it's best to understand these
things:
>
> 1) Does it scale?
> 2) Is there anything in nature that is similar? (if not, then it's highly
likely that it really can't work.scale);
> 3) Jevons Paradox states that the more efficient we become doing
something the more that we will do it, meaning that total/overall
conservation is likely to be ignored (we're far more efficient about
extracting oil out of the ground, but we're using more and more of it as a
result).
>
> The problem isn't that we need MORE transportation or more "efficient"
transportation, but that we need LESS transportation.
>
>
> -Mark Nagel
> Everett, WA
>

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