Healthy soil and sustainable growing

["TradingPostPaul" <tradingpost@riseup.net>]

Nobody has evidence that subsoiling sequesters CO2. There's no significant
humus in the subsoil, but if there were then aerating - oxidizing it -
would release CO2 to the atmosphere.

paul tradingpost@lobo.net

*********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********

On 4/29/2007 at 3:10 PM Dieter Brand wrote:

>Mike,
>
>  Thanks for the clarification.  Still, there are a number of questions
>that remain at least
>  in my mind.  With 18 to 24 inches, the Keyline subsoilers go deep into
>the subsoil,
>  it is hard to imagine that grass roots go as deep as that.  Also, in
>relation to the Carbon Farmers claims, is the improved growth really due
>to the sequestration of CO2 from the
>  atmosphere? Or is it due to the aeration of the permanent humus in the
>subsoil?
>  Claiming carbon credits for CO2 sequestration while in reality burning
>the carbon
>  accumulated in the permanent humus decades ago can hardly be right.
>  And how do the Carbon Farmers account for the fuel you need to subsoil
>grazing
>  land with very powerful machines, an external input normally not
>required for grazing
>  land.  Well, I suppose if they fail to make any money with their carbon
>credit scheme,
>  they can always try and charge their cattle farmers for the methane
>emissions of their
>  stock.  I better stop, or I will get into a really black mood.
>
>  Cheers, Dieter
>
>Mike <mike.lists@mlxvi.org> wrote:
>  By opening up the subsoil, just beneath the topsoil each time, to air
>and water Yeoman claims (and this is supported by a person I spoke to who
>has experience with this) that the roots of the pasture plants will reach
>down and fill the gaps as they are let to grow tall. By hard grazing (or
>mowing) the plants no longer need all of the roots and so the deeper roots
>die off. Hey presto, new organic matter under the existing topsoil.
>
>Rinse and repeat.
>
>It is important to note that only a small increment is performed each
time.
>
>I will admit that some of Allan Yeoman's ideas are a bit weird to me, but
>this one idea of his father's seems to be well accepted in some circles.
>
>Mike
>
>Dieter Brand wrote:     D´Coda,
>
>  The statements on this site are misleading. Probably not without intent.
>  There is no way of creating 3 to 6 inches of topsoil in a year,
>especially not
>  on grazing land. What is originally meant is that you use a subsoiler (a
>plough
>  that opens up the subsoil without turning the soil) such as the Keyline
>Subsoiler
>  manufactured by the Yeomans brother in Australia to rip open your soil
>to a
>  depth of 18 to 24 inches, and that if you repeat this twice a year for a
>duration
>  of 3 years this will somehow transform the top 18 inches of your soil
>into
>  topsoil, hence 6 inches in a year. The term topsoil is not very precise
>and
>  can be used to mean pretty much anything to want it to. However, what is
>  clear is that the above method does not create any new topsoil, black
>dirt like
>  compost or even humus, which can only be achieved by new organic matter.
>
>  Subsoilers are normally used for opening up compacted subsoil after
>  years of shallow cultivation. The Yeomans on the other hand target their

>  products at grazing land. I don’t know why this should be compacted in
>the
>  first place, but farmers are reported to be satisfied with the system.
>
>  Regarding your second point, there is nothing that will reduce CO2 in
>the
>  atmosphere to pre-industrial levels. I would favour tax breaks for
>farmer
>  converting to organic no-till using cover crops and for landowners to
>pay for
>  for reforestation or to simply leave their land with whatever native
>vegetation
>  it happens to have. I certainly would not trust assorted commercial
>parties
>  and whiz kids with get rich business quick business ideas. They say they
>  want to set up a non-profit organisation, I take this to mean that there
>are
>  no profits left after varies parties have skimmed off their part.
>
>  Regards, Dieter
>
>D'Coda <dcoda@ozarkseedexchange.com> wrote:
>  Check out http://www.carbonfarmersofamerica.com/
>
>Two claims made here:
>1. That there are records of creating 3-6 inches of topsoil in a year -
>using Yeomans sub-plowers and Savory style intensive grazing.
>2. That a huge proportion of the excess of carbon in the atmosphere is
soil
>and that by simply adding "1.6% organic matter to the world's ag. soils,
we
>could reduce C02 to pre-industrial levels"
>
>Here's a clip from an upcoming TV show about this:
>http://www2.vpt.org/abecollins.mov
>
>Since I can't check this out myself, I hope you all will and make your
>comments....is all this for real, what do you think? (And if anyone would
>be
>so kind as to post some "how to" type info here, much appreciated.)
>
>D'Coda
>www.ozarkseedexchanage.com
>(not online, email replies take 2-6 weeks)
>
>_______________________________________________
>Livingontheland mailing list
>Livingontheland@lists.ibiblio.org
>http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/livingontheland
>
>
>
>---------------------------------
>  Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell?
>Check out new cars at Yahoo! Autos.
>
>---------------------------------
>  _______________________________________________  Livingontheland mailing
>list  Livingontheland@lists.ibiblio.org
>http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/livingontheland
>
>_______________________________________________
>Livingontheland mailing list
>Livingontheland@lists.ibiblio.org
>http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/livingontheland
>
>
>
>---------------------------------
>Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell?
> Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos.
>_______________________________________________
>Livingontheland mailing list
>Livingontheland@lists.ibiblio.org
>http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/livingontheland