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Subject: Healthy soil and sustainable growing

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Chronological Thread  
  • From: "TradingPostPaul" <tradingpost@riseup.net>
  • To: livingontheland@lists.ibiblio.org
  • Subject: Re: [Livingontheland] Carbon Farmer
  • Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2007 18:00:31 -0600


Nobody has evidence that subsoiling sequesters CO2. There's no significant
humus in the subsoil, but if there were then aerating - oxidizing it -
would release CO2 to the atmosphere.

paul tradingpost@lobo.net

*********** REPLY SEPARATOR ***********

On 4/29/2007 at 3:10 PM Dieter Brand wrote:

>Mike,
>
> Thanks for the clarification. Still, there are a number of questions
>that remain at least
> in my mind. With 18 to 24 inches, the Keyline subsoilers go deep into
>the subsoil,
> it is hard to imagine that grass roots go as deep as that. Also, in
>relation to the Carbon Farmers claims, is the improved growth really due
>to the sequestration of CO2 from the
> atmosphere? Or is it due to the aeration of the permanent humus in the
>subsoil?
> Claiming carbon credits for CO2 sequestration while in reality burning
>the carbon
> accumulated in the permanent humus decades ago can hardly be right.
> And how do the Carbon Farmers account for the fuel you need to subsoil
>grazing
> land with very powerful machines, an external input normally not
>required for grazing
> land. Well, I suppose if they fail to make any money with their carbon
>credit scheme,
> they can always try and charge their cattle farmers for the methane
>emissions of their
> stock. I better stop, or I will get into a really black mood.
>
> Cheers, Dieter
>
>Mike <mike.lists@mlxvi.org> wrote:
> By opening up the subsoil, just beneath the topsoil each time, to air
>and water Yeoman claims (and this is supported by a person I spoke to who
>has experience with this) that the roots of the pasture plants will reach
>down and fill the gaps as they are let to grow tall. By hard grazing (or
>mowing) the plants no longer need all of the roots and so the deeper roots
>die off. Hey presto, new organic matter under the existing topsoil.
>
>Rinse and repeat.
>
>It is important to note that only a small increment is performed each
time.
>
>I will admit that some of Allan Yeoman's ideas are a bit weird to me, but
>this one idea of his father's seems to be well accepted in some circles.
>
>Mike
>
>Dieter Brand wrote: D´Coda,
>
> The statements on this site are misleading. Probably not without intent.
> There is no way of creating 3 to 6 inches of topsoil in a year,
>especially not
> on grazing land. What is originally meant is that you use a subsoiler (a
>plough
> that opens up the subsoil without turning the soil) such as the Keyline
>Subsoiler
> manufactured by the Yeomans brother in Australia to rip open your soil
>to a
> depth of 18 to 24 inches, and that if you repeat this twice a year for a
>duration
> of 3 years this will somehow transform the top 18 inches of your soil
>into
> topsoil, hence 6 inches in a year. The term topsoil is not very precise
>and
> can be used to mean pretty much anything to want it to. However, what is
> clear is that the above method does not create any new topsoil, black
>dirt like
> compost or even humus, which can only be achieved by new organic matter.
>
> Subsoilers are normally used for opening up compacted subsoil after
> years of shallow cultivation. The Yeomans on the other hand target their

> products at grazing land. I don’t know why this should be compacted in
>the
> first place, but farmers are reported to be satisfied with the system.
>
> Regarding your second point, there is nothing that will reduce CO2 in
>the
> atmosphere to pre-industrial levels. I would favour tax breaks for
>farmer
> converting to organic no-till using cover crops and for landowners to
>pay for
> for reforestation or to simply leave their land with whatever native
>vegetation
> it happens to have. I certainly would not trust assorted commercial
>parties
> and whiz kids with get rich business quick business ideas. They say they
> want to set up a non-profit organisation, I take this to mean that there
>are
> no profits left after varies parties have skimmed off their part.
>
> Regards, Dieter
>
>D'Coda <dcoda@ozarkseedexchange.com> wrote:
> Check out http://www.carbonfarmersofamerica.com/
>
>Two claims made here:
>1. That there are records of creating 3-6 inches of topsoil in a year -
>using Yeomans sub-plowers and Savory style intensive grazing.
>2. That a huge proportion of the excess of carbon in the atmosphere is
soil
>and that by simply adding "1.6% organic matter to the world's ag. soils,
we
>could reduce C02 to pre-industrial levels"
>
>Here's a clip from an upcoming TV show about this:
>http://www2.vpt.org/abecollins.mov
>
>Since I can't check this out myself, I hope you all will and make your
>comments....is all this for real, what do you think? (And if anyone would
>be
>so kind as to post some "how to" type info here, much appreciated.)
>
>D'Coda
>www.ozarkseedexchanage.com
>(not online, email replies take 2-6 weeks)
>
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