Healthy soil and sustainable growing

["TradingPostPaul" <tradingpost@riseup.net>]

I'm not going to play word games here. I made it crystal clear that putting a 
value on your own labor only matters when you're claiming a certain amount of 
profit on a certain activity.  I made it clear that it's misleading to claim 
ethanol produces more energy than it takes to make it,  IF they don't count 
their own labor as a cost or energy input.  Don't try to make it complicated. 
For anyone intelligent enough to take part in this list, it's just not 
possible to misunderstand this.   I will not be baited into he-said-she-said 
like you see on other lists.

Try to get back on topic. I don't want to block any posts, but this is 
getting silly.

paul, tradingpost@riseup.net
---------------
The care of the Earth is our most ancient and most worthy, and after all our 
most pleasing responsibility. To cherish what remains of it and to foster its 
renewal is our only hope.
   - Wendell Berry
*********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********

On 5/2/2006 at 8:47 AM Greg and April wrote:

>Paul,
>
>I see, knowing the value of your own labor, as an issue directly tied to
>sustainable farming practices.
>
>I understand their can be a problem with people not adding in their labor,
>but, can anyone tell me what their labor is worth?
>
>The part I am having a real hard time trying to understand, is how are
>people supposed to put a dollar value on something that they don't get
>paid
>for, and I don't care if it is you, or anyone else that can help me
>understand.
>
>
>
>If people work a job, then they get paid according to the law of demand
>and
>supply - or fair market value.    Trading skills and knowledge for money.
>
>Yet, if someone uses their own labor for something, then they are paid (
>in
>savings ) exactly what someone else is paid ( in money ) to do that exact
>same job.    Correct?
>
>What about hobbies like gardening?
>
>If you pick a 5 dozen ears of corn from a garden then you save the cost of
>having someone to pick the same 5 dozen ears of corn.
>
>If that corn has market value of $5 per doz, and it took you one hour to
>pick that 5 dozen, then that is has a labor value of $25 / hr, just for
>picking it.    Now if it took an hour to plant and weed and other wise
>take
>care of that 5 dozen ears of corn, that means the labor value of $12.50.
>So far it's reasonably simple.    Now it get difficult, did you spend any
>time taking care of the tools used?    Did you make and spread compost, on
>the soil that the corn grew in, or did you just grow a green manure?
>How
>much time was spent doing those things?
>
>How does one figure the value of their labor for a project when there are
>so
>many secondary things that go into it?
>
>
>
>Ok, let's forget corn.
>
>Compost.
>Many people here on the list use compost ( dare I say all? ).
>
>You go down the local garden center, and find out that compost is $3.00 a
>bag, for 1.25 cu ft of compost.    You know that your raised beds needs 20
>cu ft of compost so that means you need 16 bags of compost.    Wait a
>minute
>that means that you need $48 ( $2.40 / cu ft ), but you don't have that
>much
>money.    OTOH, you do have time, so you go ahead and make your own
>compost.
>
>Can anyone here tell me how much labor they use to make a known quantity
>of
>compost?    How much time goes into collecting, the materials, how much
>time
>and effort goes into chopping them up, layering in the right proportions,
>and making sure it's kept damp, and time spent with the weekly mixing?
>Do
>you use a chipper / shredder to prep all the materials?    Do you know how
>much labor you put into maintaining the chipper / shredder - to fuel it -
>get the fuel for it?
>
>After 2 years, I am still having problems keeping young rabbits alive, and
>currently the value of my labor in them, is still in the cents / hour
>category.    Obviously, not much of a money maker right now, but, with
>price
>of rabbit meat up to around $4.00 lb, if I ever get everything figured
>out,
>the value of my labor will go up big time, but, I still could not
>calculate
>just what the total value would be, because I do so many little things
>that
>contribute to the end product.
>
>I don't think that anyone here would argue that sustainable farming /
>gardening practices are bad, but, how does one figure the true value of
>the
>labor that goes into a sustainable practices let alone anything else?
>
>Greg H.
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "TradingPostPaul" <tradingpost@riseup.net>
>To: <livingontheland@lists.ibiblio.org>
>Sent: Monday, May 01, 2006 9:38
>Subject: Re: [Livingontheland] Ethanol a net energy loss
>
>
>
>>
>> When people make claims *to others* about home energy production and
>fail
>> to put a dollar value on their own labor, they're misleading people. If
>> they produce it and forget about their own labor, but don't make claims
>> *to others* about what it cost, no problem obviously. When I grow food,
>I
>> don't tell others it only costs the price of hand tools and seed, as if
>my
>> time and labor wasn't necessary for growing. People disagree about the
>> details of cost, but to leave out one's own labor when arguing
>production
>> costs is worse than misleading; it's dishonest.
>>
>> I hope you understand my point now. I'm not going to keep discussing
>> ethanol maufacture because it's not what this list is for.
>>
>> paul, tradingpost@riseup.net
>> listowner
>> ---------------