Healthy soil and sustainable growing

["TradingPostPaul" <tradingpost@riseup.net>]

I agree.

But remember I was only responding to others claims about ethanol producing 
more energy than it takes to manufacture it - hence the subject, Ethanol a 
net energy loss.  I said *nothing* about whether it's personally worthwhile 
for different individuals, so why all the long argument about that?

When people make claims *to others* about home energy production and fail to 
put a dollar value on their own labor, they're misleading people. If they 
produce it and forget about their own labor, but don't make claims *to 
others* about what it cost, no problem obviously. When I grow food, I don't 
tell others it only costs the price of hand tools and seed, as if my time and 
labor wasn't necessary for growing. People disagree about the details of 
cost, but to leave out one's own labor when arguing production costs is worse 
than misleading; it's dishonest.

I hope you understand my point now. I'm not going to keep discussing ethanol 
maufacture because it's not what this list is for.

paul, tradingpost@riseup.net
listowner
---------------
The care of the Earth is our most ancient and most worthy, and after all our 
most pleasing responsibility. To cherish what remains of it and to foster its 
renewal is our only hope.
   - Wendell Berry
*********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********

On 5/1/2006 at 12:04 AM Greg and April wrote:

>Well Paul,
>
>You appear to be real concerned about the cost of labor, so I have to
>wonder
>how much is your labor worth?
>
>How much did it cost you, to write that last message?
>
>How much does it cost you to be able to grow fresh fruits and vegetables?
>
>To make compost?    To do sustainable farming?    To weed the garden?
>
>What I'm trying to do is point out that you just can't put a dollar amount
>on some things.
>
>Last week, I spent $50 and my labor to make a single raised bed, so that I
>can TRY to garden in my backyard, instead of 6 blocks away.    I have no
>idea if it is going to work, but, it is worth it to me, to be able to jump
>out back for a few minutes when I don't have a migraine  - heck, with it
>in
>the backyard, I can spend two minutes looking it over and turning the
>water
>on if need be even with a migraine, instead of trying get everything done
>once or twice a week - at which point, it starts becoming over whelming.
>
>The question is " Was it worth it? "
>
>What do you think?
>
>I personally don't know, there is one spot in the back yard that gets more
>that 4-5 hrs of open sun, and that space was too small for the garden bed.
>Where I did put it was a spot that got about 2 hrs of sun first thing in
>the
>morning, then another 3 hrs starting about 1 pm
>
>People have to judge for them selves what their labor is worth, and no one
>else can do it for them.
>
>In the case of John Fry, he was already handling the pig manure, and all
>he
>got out of it, was fertilizer.    After he changed the way he was handling
>it, he got electricity and fertilizer from it.
>
>In the same way, last summer I could have cut the grass in the back yard,
>and then bagged it up and tossed it out, then turned around and bought
>rabbit food to feed the rabbits.    But I didn't I decided to take care of
>both problems at the same time.    As the grass grew, I moved the rabbit
>pens around the yard, and let them eat it.    I suspect that the amount of
>time I spent dealing with the rabbits and the grass went up a little (
>5-10
>min / day instead of 3-5 min /day for the rabbits and another 1/2 hour on
>the weekend for the grass ), but, at the same time, the amount of money I
>spent on fuel for the lawn mower, and food for the rabbits went down.
>Instead of having to worry about 3 things, I only had to worry about 1 (
>since I didn't have to worry about rabbit poop accumulating to point of
>being offensive ) - and to me, it was worth it.
>
>If someone doesn't like being at the mercy of big oil, it might be worth
>it,
>for them, to spend an extra 1/2 hour each day working on projects that
>gives
>them the satisfaction of telling big oil "Shove it!" when the price of
>fuel
>goes up.    That may not be worth it for you, but, it doesn't necessarily
>mean that it's wrong for everyone else.
>
>Not to long ago, there was a hot little debate on the old list, about the
>value of adding charcoal to the soil.    Nothing I recall, ever proved it
>one way or the other, but, is that any reason for someone not to try it,
>if
>they had the supplies available and they wanted to spend their time adding
>it to the soil?
>
>OTOH, quoting someone like Pimentel, who has an agenda and has been
>disproved several times, does no one any good ( and who's to say he is
>right? ).
>
>Skills to modify a carburetor can be learned like the skills to grow a
>sustainable garden, and if learning that skill is not of value to you, why
>don't you pay to have someone modify the carburetor for you?    It's going
>to cost allot less than a new FFV.
>
>The value of your own labor is like beauty.
>It's value is in the eye of the beholder, and it only goes so far.
>
>
>The same thing applies to home made fuel.
>
>Grow grain, use the grain to make alcohol, and let cattle graze the rest
>of
>the plant, along with the spent grain that is high in protein.    You then
>compost the manure, and spread it back on your fields.
>
>Later when the steer is slaughtered, the in edible parts, will provide
>N,P,
>& K for composting.
>
>If you have a milking cow instead of a steer, the excess milk can be used
>to
>feed, hogs for slaughter, again the in edible parts will provide allot of
>N,P, & K to be composted and applied back on the fields where the grain
>grew.
>
>Use the alcohol to power equipment that puts all the compost back on the
>fields.
>
>" How do you distil the alcohol ? " you ask, well that is where the
>learning
>and experimentation comes in.    Solar, low temp vacuum, and freezing are
>all methods that are in the reach of a farmer.
>
>"If we also have to get fuel materials from the soil, doesn't that make it
>even harder to keep up its organic content?" you ask.    No it doesn't
>necessarily make it harder, as I've pointed out above, but, you do have to
>pay a little more attention to what is going on around you.
>
>Let's take a moment to look at the Ethanol chemical formula, and I'll show
>you what I mean.
>
>C2H5OH
>
>Carbon, Oxygen and Hydrogen are all taken up mostly as CO2 and H2O.    No
>nitrogen, phosphorus, or potassium is used as ethanol, so those materials
>not used, and are fed to cattle, or hogs, or chickens and are eventually
>returned to the soil.
>
>Now allot of what Pimentel, was looking at, in his studies, was not
>sustainable farming.
>
>He was looking at plowing the fields, probably disking them 2 or 3 times,
>then using a planter, then probably harrowing at least twice or a couple
>of
>applications of pesticide, at least one application of herbicide, at least
>1
>application of fertilizer, then harvesting.
>
>That means taking the tractor into the field at least 5 times.
>
>That is not fuel efficient, and definitely not sustainable.    There is no
>way that method can be sustainable.
>
>OTOH, putting in a green manure, as you harvest, then kill and no till
>plant
>in one pass ( possible with some of the rollers they are using now ).
>Means you can drop the number of time you run the tractor into the field,
>and that in turn means that less fuel is going to be used just generating
>a
>crop in the first place.    Using a green manure means that you not going
>to
>be spending as much money on chemical fertilizers, and kill and leaving in
>place means that you are mulching your fields, with will lower your
>herbicide bill ( unless you use chemicals to kill and you still might )
>because the mulch will hinder weeds.
>
>
>So by moving to a more sustainable farming practice, you end up using less
>fuel to begin with.
>
>Corn is not necessarily the best material from which to make ethanol.
>IIRC, some varieties of sorghum give more sugar, with less demand on the
>soil.    There are other plants that will give plenty of sugar with lower
>demands on the soil, but, " Everyone knows that ethanol is made from corn
>",
>so corn is used as a base for ethanol production.
>
>It is truly unfortunate that corn is so well known, because there are
>other
>grains out there, that have even more protean, and are not as demanding of
>nutrients and water for a successful crop, as corn is.
>
>
>Greg H.
>
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "TradingPostPaul" <tradingpost@riseup.net>
>To: <livingontheland@lists.ibiblio.org>
>Sent: Sunday, April 30, 2006 13:31
>Subject: Re: [Livingontheland] Ethanol a net energy loss
>
>
>>
>> Sorry but he already took his ball and went home. I've been picking up
>> goodies from Journeytoforever for a long time. But before I commit to
>> pushing ethanol for the average Joe I want to see case studies of
>ordinary
>> folks like me who find practical ways to produce and use their own.
>> Without having to have the skills to modify their carburetor or buy some
>> new car that goes both ways. Far as I've been able to see, they don't
>> figure in any cost for their own labor. If homemade ethanol becomes cost
>> effective at some point with gas prices even higher, then the cost
>benefit
>> ratio could certainly change. And wouldn't it be nice to be free of the
>> gasoline grid.   But I have to look at both sides and I have no vested
>> interest either way.
>>
>
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