Internetworkers: http://www.ibiblio.org/internetworkers/

["Shea Tisdale" <shea AT sheatisdale.com>]

> -----Original Message-----
> From: internetworkers-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org
[mailto:internetworkers-
> bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Kurt Schlatzer
> Sent: Monday, September 22, 2003 11:38 AM
> To: Internetworkers: http://www.ibiblio.org/internetworkers/
> Subject: RE: [internetworkers] Patriot Act
> 
> So let me get this straight, you believe that we need to repeal the
> Patriot  Act because the government is picking on criminals? I have my
own > concerns about "Big Brother" but there is nothing in this form
letter that > makes a good case for repeal.

It's not a form letter and I guess turning the country into a police
state isn't a good reason to you.

> Some jackass got nailed for running a meth lab using the act. How is
this
> a bad thing?

Criminals deserve to be prosecuted, but should you really tolerate drug
dealers being prosecuted as distributing weapons of mass destruction?  I
guess current drug law isn't enough to deal with it.  

Do you really think it should be okay for a law enforcement agency to
read your mail, tap your phone and read your email without going to
judge and proving they have probable cause?  

> Before you go pushing your causes on the group, make sure you do some
> serious research and have a valid argument. 

Gee, I thought losing our civil rights was enough of a reason.  And if
you want some serious research, try reading the links.  I could have
posted all of that in my message and my particular spin on it, but then
my email would have been like 50 pages long.  

>Don't just throw a form letter at us. 

Cut me to the core...

> Better yet, send it for another forum. 

I'll send emails wherever I like - that is until I'm prosecuted for it
as a thought crime...

>I'm sick of getting crap like this in my inbox.

Apparently you are getting tired of your civil rights as well.  And it
seems like critical thought might also be on that list. 

So if you don't like it don't read it.  Better yet, unsubscribe.

> Kurt Schlatzer
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: internetworkers-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org
> [mailto:internetworkers-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org]On Behalf Of Shea
> Tisdale
> Sent: Monday, September 22, 2003 10:58 AM
> To: 'Internetworkers: http://www.ibiblio.org/internetworkers/'
> Subject: [internetworkers] Patriot Act
> 
> 
> I am hoping you will forgive this use of bandwidth to promote a cause
of
> mine.  Namely, the repeal of the USA Patriot Act.  I know everyone
won't
> agree with me, and I'm actually glad that is the case.  Otherwise,
life
> would be pretty boring.  Therefore, I encourage you to read my opinion
and
> the information below and anything else you can find and form your own
> opinion and make it known to your representatives.
> 
> And let me say that I think it's important you do this whether you
agree
> with me or not.
> 
> The price good people pay for their indifference to public affairs is
to
> be
> ruled by evil men.
> - Plato (427-347 BC)
> 
> I don't know how many of you are aware or not, but the USA Patriot Act
is
> being used increasingly against US Citizens for common crimes.  The
law
> was
> never intended for this (at least publicly they never said this when
it
> was
> proposed) and it is a subversion of Constitution and our basic rights
as
> citizens.
> 
> You do not examine legislation in the light of the benefits it will
convey
> if properly administered, but in the light of the wrongs it would do
and
> the
> harms it would cause if improperly administered.
> 
> - Lyndon B. Johnson
> 
> I know that the "Security concerns" following Sept. 11 made many
people
> feel
> that laws like this are necessary, but I personally believe that it
wasn't
> a
> lack of laws that lead to this or that caused us to fail in preventing
it.
> 
> And afterward, the events of Sept. 11 were used by the government as
an
> excuse to pass laws that remove civil liberties in the name of
"protecting
> us" from the evil of terrorism.
> 
> The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed
(and
> hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless
series
> of hobgoblins; all of them imaginary.
> 
> 
> -        H.L. Mencken
> 
> While I will concede that not all threats to us are imaginary, and the
> acts
> of Sept. 11 certainly prove that.  I do think that it is appropriate
to
> consider that the aim of politicians and governments is to increase
their
> power at the expense of the people.  Our forefathers knew this well
and
> built many protections into the constitution and debated issues such
as
> this.  In considering the Constitution, James Madison quoted this:  In
> dubiis, non praesumitur pro potentia. In cases of doubt, the
presumption
> is
> not in favor of a power.
> 
> Everything that the terrorists did was against the law, from being
here
> illegally, to using forged paperwork, to the heinous acts they carried
> out.
> And several agencies had all the information they needed to
investigate
> and
> failed to do so.  So I don't think the government needs more laws -
only
> to
> enforce the laws we already have.  They don't need new surveillance
> powers,
> they had information already.  They simply failed to act on it or to
pass
> it
> on to other agencies that might have been concerned.  But seeing an
> opportunity, our government has made a power grab that gives them
> unprecedented new powers and leaves ordinary citizens at their mercy.
> 
> Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary
> Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
> 
> 
> - Benjamin Franklin
> 
> So that is my take on it with a few quotes thrown in by people much
> smarter
> than I.  Please consider this and read some of the news stories below.
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.centralmaine.com/view/editorials/030917edit_pat.shtml (If
you
> go
> to this website, please read the story, but you might also look at
their
> address banner near the top of the page and run your cursor across it.
> Cool
> effect)
> 
> Within six weeks of passing the Patriot Act the Justice Department
> conducted
> seminars teaching enforcement agencies how to use the provisions of
that
> law
> against citizens not suspected of terrorism.
> 
> Some learned that lesson too well.
> 
> A North Carolina county prosecutor used the law to charge a man
accused of
> running a methamphetamine lab of manufacturing chemical weapons. The
> accused
> could get 12 years to life behind bars. The normal sentence for the
crime
> is
> about six months.
> 
>
http://www.eff.org/Privacy/Surveillance/Terrorism_militias/20011031_eff_
us
> a_
> patriot_analysis.php
> 
> http://www.truthout.org/docs_02/04.02A.JVB.Patriot.htm
> 
> 
> http://www.securityfocus.com/news/5010
> 
> http://www.bordc.org/Repeal.pdf
> 
> 
> http://www.coloradoan.com/news/stories/20030807/opinion/17728.html
> 
> http://www.msnbc.com/news/950176.asp
> 
> 
> http://216.109.117.135/search/cache?p=patriot+act+used&ei=UTF-
> 8&url=nKXoUopC
> Sz0J:www.azstarnet.com/star/mon/30915nPatriotAct-commonc.html
> 
> http://www.truthout.org/docs_03/061703F.shtml
> 
> http://www.independent-
> media.tv/item.cfm?fmedia_id=822&fcategory_desc=Under%
> 20Reported
> 
> 
> http://www.clairewolfe.com/wolfesblog/00000143.html
> 
> 
> 
> 
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