Internetworkers: http://www.ibiblio.org/internetworkers/

[David Minton <dminton AT mindspring.com>]

I think the important part you are missing is that the Patriot Act is
applied to accused criminals--in this county (at least until recently), you
were only a (convicted) criminal after being convicted in a trial, or agree
to a plea agreement.

Under the Patriot Act, suspected criminals loose many rights that we take
for granted. You don't have to do anything wrong to be suspected of a crime.

How about this scenario (note I don't know if the Patriot Act would cover
this, but it sounds good): Are you a system administrator? Are you sure all
of the security patches are up-to-date? Is your desktop computer infected
with a worm or virus? If a hacker uses your system for "computer terrorism"
such as SPAMING, are you an accomplice for your negligence? That is probably
good for 5-10 years ;-)

David

On 9/22/03 11:37 AM, "Kurt Schlatzer" <kurt AT kurtschlatzer.com> wrote:

> So let me get this straight, you believe that we need to repeal the Patriot
> Act because the government is picking on criminals? I have my own concerns
> about "Big Brother" but there is nothing in this form letter that makes a
> good case for repeal.
> 
> Some jackass got nailed for running a meth lab using the act. How is this a
> bad thing?
> 
> Before you go pushing your causes on the group, make sure you do some
> serious research and have a valid argument. Don't just throw a form letter
> at us. Better yet, send it for another forum. I'm sick of getting crap like
> this in my inbox.
> 
> Kurt Schlatzer
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: internetworkers-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org
> [mailto:internetworkers-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org]On Behalf Of Shea Tisdale
> Sent: Monday, September 22, 2003 10:58 AM
> To: 'Internetworkers: http://www.ibiblio.org/internetworkers/'
> Subject: [internetworkers] Patriot Act
> 
> 
> I am hoping you will forgive this use of bandwidth to promote a cause of
> mine.  Namely, the repeal of the USA Patriot Act.  I know everyone won¹t
> agree with me, and I¹m actually glad that is the case.  Otherwise, life
> would be pretty boring.  Therefore, I encourage you to read my opinion and
> the information below and anything else you can find and form your own
> opinion and make it known to your representatives.
> 
> And let me say that I think it¹s important you do this whether you agree
> with me or not.
> 
> The price good people pay for their indifference to public affairs is to be
> ruled by evil men.
> ‹ Plato (427-347 BC)
> 
> I don¹t know how many of you are aware or not, but the USA Patriot Act is
> being used increasingly against US Citizens for common crimes.  The law was
> never intended for this (at least publicly they never said this when it was
> proposed) and it is a subversion of Constitution and our basic rights as
> citizens.
> 
> You do not examine legislation in the light of the benefits it will convey
> if properly administered, but in the light of the wrongs it would do and the
> harms it would cause if improperly administered.
> 
> ‹ Lyndon B. Johnson
> 
> I know that the ³Security concerns² following Sept. 11 made many people feel
> that laws like this are necessary, but I personally believe that it wasn¹t a
> lack of laws that lead to this or that caused us to fail in preventing it.
> 
> And afterward, the events of Sept. 11 were used by the government as an
> excuse to pass laws that remove civil liberties in the name of ³protecting
> us² from the evil of terrorism.
> 
> The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and
> hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series
> of hobgoblins; all of them imaginary.
> 
> 
> ‹        H.L. Mencken
> 
> While I will concede that not all threats to us are imaginary, and the acts
> of Sept. 11 certainly prove that.  I do think that it is appropriate to
> consider that the aim of politicians and governments is to increase their
> power at the expense of the people.  Our forefathers knew this well and
> built many protections into the constitution and debated issues such as
> this.  In considering the Constitution, James Madison quoted this:  In
> dubiis, non praesumitur pro potentia. In cases of doubt, the presumption is
> not in favor of a power.
> 
> Everything that the terrorists did was against the law, from being here
> illegally, to using forged paperwork, to the heinous acts they carried out.
> And several agencies had all the information they needed to investigate and
> failed to do so.  So I don¹t think the government needs more laws ­ only to
> enforce the laws we already have.  They don¹t need new surveillance powers,
> they had information already.  They simply failed to act on it or to pass it
> on to other agencies that might have been concerned.  But seeing an
> opportunity, our government has made a power grab that gives them
> unprecedented new powers and leaves ordinary citizens at their mercy.
> 
> Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary
> Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
> 
> 
> ‹ Benjamin Franklin
> 
> So that is my take on it with a few quotes thrown in by people much smarter
> than I.  Please consider this and read some of the news stories below.
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.centralmaine.com/view/editorials/030917edit_pat.shtml (If you go
> to this website, please read the story, but you might also look at their
> address banner near the top of the page and run your cursor across it.  Cool
> effect)
> 
> Within six weeks of passing the Patriot Act the Justice Department conducted
> seminars teaching enforcement agencies how to use the provisions of that law
> against citizens not suspected of terrorism.
> 
> Some learned that lesson too well.
> 
> A North Carolina county prosecutor used the law to charge a man accused of
> running a methamphetamine lab of manufacturing chemical weapons. The accused
> could get 12 years to life behind bars. The normal sentence for the crime is
> about six months.
> 
> http://www.eff.org/Privacy/Surveillance/Terrorism_militias/20011031_eff_usa_
> patriot_analysis.php
> 
> http://www.truthout.org/docs_02/04.02A.JVB.Patriot.htm
> 
> 
> http://www.securityfocus.com/news/5010
> 
> http://www.bordc.org/Repeal.pdf
> 
> 
> http://www.coloradoan.com/news/stories/20030807/opinion/17728.html
> 
> http://www.msnbc.com/news/950176.asp
> 
> 
> http://216.109.117.135/search/cache?p=patriot+act+used&ei=UTF-8&url=nKXoUopC
> Sz0J:www.azstarnet.com/star/mon/30915nPatriotAct-commonc.html
> 
> http://www.truthout.org/docs_03/061703F.shtml
> 
> http://www.independent-media.tv/item.cfm?fmedia_id=822&fcategory_desc=Under%
> 20Reported
> 
> 
> http://www.clairewolfe.com/wolfesblog/00000143.html
> 
> 
> 
> 
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