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[Johnathan Livingston <legolas9 AT ymail.com>]

I thank all who responded for the information provided.
Especially Rob forTvo's words of wisdom.
John



________________________________
From: Rob <becida AT comcast.net>
To: homestead AT lists.ibiblio.org
Sent: Tuesday, December 23, 2008 12:41:02 AM
Subject: [Homestead] Tvo on welding

I'm going thru some tvo files searching for the word "weld" & passing 
on the ones that look like they fit in with someone asking about 
welding. I knew a couple of people who went to the Navy welding 
school. Bryon told me they explained how it worked, showed how to 
make the arc & safety stuff then sent them to weld. They had lot's of 
practice, lot's and lot's of practice.

Rob
becida AT comcast.net
western WA state, where it's not snowing now!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Date:     Mon, 08 Mar 1999 16:13:27 -0500
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From: Tvoivozhd <tvoivozd AT roanoke.infi.net>
To: "homestead AT listserv.oit.unc.edu" <homestead AT listserv.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: More kitchen table businesses
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Many years ago a friend of mine had a very good welding shop and was
looking for production items he could add to his jobshop business.  A
thriving business is jewelry if you have something that is novel, is
cheap to produce, or both.

I took a half inch piece of cement asbestos board, drilled a linear
series of slightly overlapping and tilted indentations with a spade bit
(just large enough to accomodate pennies)  Forgot how many, but enough
to make a wristband when bent around a form.

My friend brazed or silver soldered (many years ago, forgot which) the
pennies together at the overlap (with a hand-held acetylene torch).  In
volume, this would be cheap and easy to automate, but you normally would
not make the investment until forced to do so to meet orders.

We had to shop around for plating and got some ridiculous quotes, but
finally found a shop which flashplated the bracelents with gold in one
version, nickel in another for six to seven cents apiece.  We also got
hold of a box salesman who make us up at very low cost some whiteboard
boxes with a white tissue paper lining---made a good display against a
velvet display board at craft shows.

I know our total cost was somewhat under fifty cents.  They wholesaled
at $2.50 and retailed between $4.95 and $8.95.  Still have two of them I
sent to my daughter, plus a piece of the old literature---don't know in
which storage box.

The friend is no more, welding fumes did the dirty work.  If you weld,
you must use good ventilation, but with a little caution, guerilla
advertising, some travel, this and similar items would add a lot to
homestead income.

Now you see a reason why I think a workshop is the best, most versatile
tool for making a homestead/small farm viable.  Note that flashplating,
which only takes a few seconds and almost no gold or silver, uses only a
few pennies of material.  Heavier plate, which must endure more than a
year or so, uses more and costs more.

Many low-cost, no-cost materials can be plated.  Scrap copper wire from
salvage shops, if chemically or electrocleaned, can be made into
interesting, novel flashplated jewelry.

Unless you are near a really big city with a lot of plating shops, you
might have to plate your own rings, bracelets, pendants, leaves, acorns,
seashells, figurines etc. (coat non-metallics with carbon powder first)

It takes plating solutions, anodes, cathodes, a controllable DC power
supply from an electronic parts supplier or radio/tv repair equipment
supplier---lots of books available on use,
the old Johnson Smith catalog even used to sell a little metallic brush,
clip and wire, with a can of metallic paste which you could use with
flashlight or car batteries to replate items like car emblems, door
handles etc.

You can also buy equipment from plating supply manufacturers or
assemblers---check their prices and specs for comparison---there are
hundred of them on the web.

To maintain proper current density in the plating solution, big pieces
such as automotive parts, motorcycle fenders, tanks, handlebars, take
bigger tanks and power supplies.

An added piece of advice.  If you plate and sell your own products no
one will bother you.  If you do custom plating you will run into all
sorts of zoning, permitting, EPA problems that an infant business really
does not need.  If you want to supply motorcycle shops, buy the parts,
plate and sell them---don't do custom plating in your own shop---you can
go to a customer's shop to do brushplating though...


http://www.beckerindustries.com/
http://www.webcom.com/gpsinc/GPS2.html
http://www.goldtouchinc.com/

http://www.protriminc.com/p4a.html
http://www.americangoldplating.com/Gold%20Platingsystems.HTM
http://www.goldfx.com/products.html

http://www.americangoldplating.com/10_amp_jewlers_gold_plating_syst.htm

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Date:     Sat, 31 Jul 1999 18:29:11 -0400
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From: tvoivozhd <tvoivozd AT roanoke.infi.net>
To: homestead AT listserv.oit.unc.edu
Subject: Re: Welding Equipment Justification
References: <3.0.1.32.19971202165636.007ad390 AT crash.cts.com> 
<3.0.5.32.19990729203616.00841100 AT crash.cts.com>
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Don Bowen wrote:

> At 04:06 PM 7/29/1999 -0500, you wrote:
> >Hey Don, remember this?  It's from Dec 2, 1997!  (Boy, I really do
> >stockpile you guys' advice, and sometimes I can even find it, too!)
> >
> >Well, I'm in the process of finishing up the booklist for my website,
> >and I just can't identify this book.  Can't find it anywhere.  Could you
> >possibly give me a more complete title or author or both?  Or an ISBN #?
>
> Welders Handbook by Richard Finch.
> Published by HPBooks
> ISBN 1-55788-264-9
>
> Excellent book by a professional welder and Corvair racer.
>
> Don Bowen                      donb AT cts.com
> Valley Center, CA              Senior Software Engineer
>                                C/C++, PERL, Java, embedded systems
>
> http://members.cts.com/crash/d/donb
> http://www.oldengine.org/members/ihc14

>>>tvoivozhd>>>after you've read Don's recommended book, see if you can find
Vol I and Vol II, "Arc Welded Projects" Published by The James F.. Lincoln Arc
Welding Foundation", Cleveland, Ohio.  Library of Congress Catalog Card
Number 74-54347 (the number of Vol II, can't find Vol I)

All sorts of useful DIY projects for homestead use---trailers of all types,
hydraulic wood splitters, cattle squeeze-chute, sorghum cane mill, maple
syrup evaporator, log and fence-post debarker, spiral metal staircases etc.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 13:22:00 -0400
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Don Bowen wrote:

> At 09:30 PM 6/11/2000 , you wrote:
> >Found this .... looks like a neat idea. A welder built into your truck.
> >
> >Rob
> >becidaa AT paulbunyan.net
> >
> >http://www.pirate4x4.com/tech/on-boardwelder/
>
> Add the following and you will really be set for TEOTWAWKI
> http://www.off-road.com/jeep/tech/body/york/
>
> Don Bowen                      donb AT cts.com
> Valley Center, CA              Senior Software Engineer
> Internet development and software engineering

Tvoivozhd---damn---you guys left out the flotation gear and depth-charge
launcher.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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>From cayadopi AT yahoo.com  Tue Dec 23 12:20:23 2008
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From: Leslie <cayadopi AT yahoo.com>
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Subject: Re: [Homestead] More on Gold
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No I don't think I misinterpreted.
 
In other things I have read, governments, serfdoms, kingdoms, etc. practiced 
"clipping" coins (i.e they cheated on the value of the coin).  The modern day 
equivalent is clearly seen in US dimes and quarters, which are no longer 
solid silver.  They have been clipped (filled) with other metals.  The US 
government is cheating on the value of coins & paper currency.  The exchange 
of X units of labor for a 100% silver dime, is now exchanged for 1/100th% of 
the same amount of silver via "clipping"/cheating.  (Not an exact number, but 
illustrative for argument.)  This has been a long drawn out process of 
clipping both metal & paper currency in the US spanning some 80-90 years.
 
The hoarding events that has lead to current time backwardation probably has 
occured in two stages.  The first being those who hid their gold from the 
government confiscating it some 80-90 ago when the US made it illegal - and 
passed it on to their children.  And the second wave starting when the US 
made it legal to own gold again, and then took us off the gold standard in 
the 1970s triggering fear of monetary collapse.  I would venture there are a 
lot of gold bugs who never sold any of the gold they purchased in the 70s as 
back then they understood the collapse of the fiat currency was underway 
regardless of how many years it would take - even if they bought at the top.  
I know I was in my early twenties, and I understood that back then - that 
gold is to be hoarded and exchanged as the currency finishes collapsing.
 
Fekete explains hoarding was a long drawn out event in the W. Roman Empire, 
and in modern times we have a similar event going on.
 
Backwardation in part is telling us that fewer and fewer people hoarding 
gold/silver today are willing to exchange it for paper dollars or for those 
"clipped" silver dimes and quarters that are no longer 100% silver.
 
Currently the troops are still accepting below minimum wage(?) paid in the 
form of paper fiat currency.   If the government doesn't increase their wages 
in sync with hyperinflation - how long will they stay?  How can they feed 
their families?  
 
There is no doubt in my mind that the US Gov't is, and has been for a long 
time, bankrupt.  So far the US is still paying debts by creating more and 
more currency out of thin air.  How long people will continue to accept that 
form of payment is another story.  I do believe we're headed for a monetary 
hyperinflation phase, where the currency collapses in the end.  (And not just 
the US, I believe a lot of G-20s are going the same way.)
 
What happens after that? 
 
>From what I've read, hyperinflations do not end until governments stop 
>issuing the collapsing currency, issue a new currency, and promise not to 
>debase it by increasing the number of units circulating.  It won't work 
>until there is CONfidence that the government will stop the clipping.  I 
>wish I knew if that typically happens overnight, or if the next new currency 
>typically gets clipped again after a short period of CONfidence. The gold 
>bugs may hoard their gold, even if it means passing to the next 
>generation... meaning there is no centralized price mechanism.
 
How DO people value gold outside of a government issued money system - which 
in part is what I interpreted James to be talking about.  You can't eat it, 
but you can use it to trade without others willing to accept it, but what is 
the pricing mechanism?  
 
If the dollar collapses and people are still willing to trade gold for say 
Euro, you have a pricing mechanism.  If the Euro collapses, and the Canadian 
or NZDollar still sports a gold price, you can still exchange it, and so on.  
After that, how do people come to a consensus of value - of fair value?  If 
no one is willing to trade for ANY fiat currency, then what?
 
The way I read Fekete's article is that during the dark ages there was a 
period where you could not count on gold/silver being used as a medium of 
exchange.  It may have been because there was no way to determine value (i.e. 
how many grams would be worth a dozen eggs, etc.)  He states that gold/silver 
went into hiding never to re-emerge during the lifetime of the original 
holders.  I assume from that that it was passed on from generation to 
generation until such time as there was a reason to swap out into a different 
kind of currency or other medium of exchange (as there have been many besides 
gold/silver).  Of course back then, computers and modern transportation did 
not exist to facilitate world wide trading.
 
In a Dark Ages II type scenario, you can't eat gold, can't wear it, can't 
heat with it.  However, you can pass it to the next generation clandestinely 
and avoid paying taxes to theiving governments.  LOL.  
 
I think Fekete is saying that gold/silver retains value as a more wide-spread 
medium of exchange (whether in physical metal or metal backed currency) only 
when their is wide-spread confidence in the governing body.  
 
Under a chaotic government(s) situation - and limited person to person 
gold/silver exchange - a large landowner/farmer MIGHT be willing to exchange 
his excess food production for some gold IF his goal is to acquire gold for 
his heirs or for a time when the governing body can be trusted again.  
However, a small farmer barely able to produce above his own needs is not 
going to swap his one extra chicken for gold if he needs a horse shoe from 
the blacksmith for his plow, and the blacksmith doesn't want gold but needs 
to eat.
 
I don't know if the US or the world will decsend into another Dark Ages; I 
don't discount the possibility - but I don't have any way of determining how 
far out along the fat tail of a bell curve the possibility of a Dark Ages II 
needs to go.  Of if we will just return to a more agrarian society, or what.
 
One point that Fekete makes is that he foresees a time when there would be no 
sellers of gold/silver.  I would have to think about that for a long time.  
But my first thought, is maybe initially but, I think in time some would be 
willing to sell as a last resort (or not knowing the value) to those who have 
excess production, who see gold/silver as a future generation(s) way of 
preserving wealth.  
 
On your point, "Anyone who now believes things will become 'that bad', should 
be out with ropes, rifles, pitchforks, and whatever else will kill and maim 
those in power who would allow such a thing to occur."
 
True, but in truth WHO allowed it to occur?  WE DID. WE who did not rise up 
in anger at the debasement of the currency and put a stop to it.  WE who 
understood the consequences and failed to teach values of exchange and of 
production and self-preservation through our own efforts.  WE DO deserve to 
get a new Dark Ages, not because we are sitting and waiting for it, but 
because we failed to recognize the cause of it and failed to prevent it, even 
with all of our accumulated knowledge of thousands of years.
 
Although ropes and guillotines won't be needed - starvation and disease will 
take care of it.
 
Yes, it echoes of Ayn Rand, but to me it is the much more accurate to blame 
"we" than those in power.
 
 
PS CAPS are not "yelling",,,, but meant to emphasis on paper the words I 
would emphasis in person.


--- On Tue, 12/23/08, bobf <bobford79 AT yahoo.com> wrote:

From: bobf <bobford79 AT yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Homestead] More on Gold
To: cayadopi AT yahoo.com, homestead AT lists.ibiblio.org
Date: Tuesday, December 23, 2008, 11:04 AM

Leslie, I believe you mis-read Dr. Fekets's intenet where he draws upon
historical anaylis.  He wrote:

"............... causation goes in the opposite direction. The
disappearance of gold and silver coins as a means of exchange was a
long-drawn-out, cumulative event. In the end, no one was willing to exchange
gold and silver coins for the debased coinage of the empire. At that point the
empire was bankrupt; it could no longer pay the troops that defended its
boundaries against the barbarians threatening with invasion.'......."

That is to say, that the gold and silver still retained their value , in his
opinion; but ttheir was nothing left in the fiat system worth the trade value 
of
the gold and silver.  And, if we are sitting and waiting for a return of the
"dark ages", we desrve whatever we get, anyway.  Anyone who now
believes things will become 'that bad', should be out with ropes,
rifles, pitchforks, and whatever else will kill and maim those in power who
would allow such a thing to occur.  Most of us think we are witnessing a
calamity, but not anything close to a repeat of the 'Dark Ages'.

--------------------------------------------------------------------




--- On Tue, 12/23/08, Leslie <cayadopi AT yahoo.com> wrote:


>  
> Fekete writes an update on the outlook for the value of
> gold.  This one is quite interesting as he talks about what
> happened to gold/silver during/after the collapse of the
> Western Roman Empire and the parallels to today.  History
> supports James' points a couple weeks ago that
> gold/silvere will have zero value - the pricing mechanism
> will be gone.
>  
> Fekete warns that gold in backwardation in Dec 2008, is
> warning, is a premonition of what is coming down the road. 
> He believes there will be repeated instances of
> backwardation, each more severe than the preceeding, as
> gold/silver go into hiding.  Hyperinflation and ultimately
> the collapse of the monetary system - a point where
> gold/silver will not have a value either, because those
> hoarding will not be willing to part with it, until such
> time as confidence in a fiat currency returns.  
>  
> After the collapse of the Roman Empire we went into the
> Dark Ages, where payment in gold/silver could not be taken
> for granted - gold/silver went into hiding never to
> re-emerge during the lifetime of the original holders. 
> Fekete warns that the disappearance of gold/silver is
> ominous.
>  
>


      
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>From legolas9 AT ymail.com  Tue Dec 23 12:24:58 2008
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From: Johnathan Livingston <legolas9 AT ymail.com>
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What do I want to weld?
Right now, there is a lawn tracktor frame I want to reconfigure for another 
use.  So that would be less than quarter inch steel.  There is a pipe frame 
for a livestock gate I want to put together..  There's a project using steel 
drums to make a small grain silo, so that would be sheet, kind of.  There are 
some reapirs to a wagon that will use pipe and angle iron.  Is it possible to 
seld the thin walled electric conduit?  That would simplify another project.
I don't know of any cast iron right now.
Mig and Tig are too expensive for me at this time.  I have a very small MAP 
OXY setup, for soldering plumbing.  That empties an Oxy tank in a few 
minutes.  Much too short to do anything besides some copper pipe.

Is there a minimum size for an arc welder?  Considering your suggestions, I 
may buy an AC arc welder now and look for gas welding parts at auctions, 
garage sales, etc.

Local schools are a pretty good drive from here.  I'll look into it.  The 
book, I will look into this afternoon.
Thanks




________________________________
From: Don Bowen <don.bowen AT earthlink.net>
To: homestead AT lists.ibiblio.org
Sent: Monday, December 22, 2008 11:36:29 PM
Subject: Re: [Homestead] welding

What do you want to weld?  Thin sheet? Heavy plate?  Cast iron?  All require
different techniques.  For a start take a class.  Many schools offer night
classes on welding and will help you decide what equipment to buy.  Many
times local welding stores will give significant discounts for students in
the classes.  Other than that, a good book is the one by Richard Finch.

For thin material a gas outfit is a good start.  Plus it is handy to cut
heavier metal and it is often called a "hot wrench" because of the way a
little flame can make rusted nuts loosen.  The biggest hassle is the tanks.
Small tanks are fine for occasional jobs but do run out fast on larger jobs.
Tanks can be leased or purchased..  

To get good beads, a wire feed welder works well and a beginner can do a
passable job with one but they are more expensive than a stick welder.  Good
AC stick welders are common and not too high priced.  Makes a better weld
but the units are more expensive.  Avoid the small cheap buzz boxes.

I have gas, stick, and wire.  The gas is an outfit I bought over several
garage sales, regulators at one (single stage, still looking for an
affordable set of dual) mixer and tips at others.  A friend gave me the
hose.  I have two sets of tanks, a small and a larger set, both sets picked
up at garage sales.  

The stick welder is a 40 year old 180 Amp AC welder I bought at a garage
sale that has what appears to be an almost 100% duty cycle.  I have abused
it many times.  The cables were given to me and I bought the holder and
clamp new.  I use mostly 6011 and 6013 rod because I bought several boxes at
a garage sale. I have put some hard surface rod through it.

The new welder I have is a Hobart wire feed.  I got it at a welding show and
it is an easy unit to use.  The gas tank came from a home center going out
of business and I traded it for a larger tank at a sale.  I use C20.  Good
welder and easy to use but it has problems welding much over 1/4 single
pass.

I also have an anvil and forge and have done some forge welding.

Don Bowen  KI6DIU
http://www.braingarage.com/Dons/Travels/journal/Journal.html


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>From cayadopi AT yahoo.com  Tue Dec 23 12:28:11 2008
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Subject: [Homestead] another on oil
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Contango spreads are some $10 - oil companies can go into the spot market and 
buy low today existing supplies (take delivery) and store on ships and sell 
tomorrow and a guaranteed $10 profit.  
 
Frontline, one of the largest tanker co's, reports that 20-25% of their 
tankers have been leased for storage by the oil producers.....  
 
Oil companies have discovered it is cheaper to buy existing inventory, as 
opposed to producing new supply.  That probably will not last long..... so 
expect oil to rise when the-failure-to-replenish-supply-to-meet-demand 
reality hits the markets ........
 
This stuff is like something out of the twighlight zone....
 
 
 
 
I'm off to do the X-mas Cookie baking thing................. and "I'll be 
back" (in my best Schwartzenegger imitation...) 
 
 



>From bobford79 AT yahoo.com  Tue Dec 23 12:41:47 2008
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Leslie my comments were specific to Dr. Fekete 's meaning, using his own 
words : 

" In the end, no one was willing to exchange gold and silver coins for the 
debased coinage of the empire."

Acoording to him, and others like him, I might add, the gold never lost its 
value; the gold was never debased.  On the contrary, because if its innate, 
intrinsic value, it was hoarded and hidden away, for there was nothing left, 
proclaimed by fiat that had retained enough value that the owners of gold 
were "willing to exchange" their gold.

Now, Fekete is an uber goldbug.  I find good points in alot of his writing; 
but other groups would call him hysterical or even a 'nut'.
There are other finacial sites similar to financial sense--the site that you 
quote.  Some or bigger, some smaller, but they all have well written 
commentary by many well educated ,sometimes prominent, men.  Each commengtary 
makes perfect sense until you read the next commentary.  There are many 
historical analogies, and different ways of interpreting those historical 
events.  Even today, our best economists still disagree on what finally ended 
the great depression, and that wasn't very long ago.

There is also the factor of price manipulation of currencies (including gold 
if you consider gold to be money) by governments and financials cartels all 
through history.  Much tales of manipulation are real and much is the fabric 
of told & yet untold conspiracy theories.

Dr. Fekete is just another very smart voice.  try 321Gold.com,or  
jsmineset.com , for a bigger variety of commentary.  JSMineset is the most 
prominent (along with the commentry section of Peter Schiff's Europac.net.).  
You seem to be drifting toward to very worst case senario set; and you could 
very well be right.  I'm still reading and thinking, having not yet decided 
that anyone is even close to perfecting predicting the future.  And, I always 
'hope' for a better case scenario..:-) .............

--------------------------------------------------------------------------  






--- On Tue, 12/23/08, Leslie <cayadopi AT yahoo.com> wrote:

> From: Leslie <cayadopi AT yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: [Homestead] More on Gold
> To: homestead AT lists.ibiblio.org
> Date: Tuesday, December 23, 2008, 10:20 AM
> No I don't think I misinterpreted.
>  
> In other things I have read, governments, serfdoms,
> kingdoms, etc. practiced "clipping" coins (i.e
> they cheated on the value of the coin).  The modern day
> equivalent is clearly seen in US dimes and quarters, which
> are no longer solid silver.  They have been clipped
> (filled) with other metals.  The US government is cheating
> on the value of coins & paper currency.  The exchange
> of X units of labor for a 100% silver dime, is now exchanged
> for 1/100th% of the same amount of silver via
> "clipping"/cheating.  (Not an exact number, but
> illustrative for argument.)  This has been a long drawn out
> process of clipping both metal & paper currency in the
> US spanning some 80-90 years.
>  
> The hoarding events that has lead to current time
> backwardation probably has occured in two stages.  The
> first being those who hid their gold from the government
> confiscating it some 80-90 ago when the US made it illegal -
> and passed it on to their children.  And the second wave
> starting when the US made it legal to own gold again, and
> then took us off the gold standard in the 1970s triggering
> fear of monetary collapse.  I would venture there are a lot
> of gold bugs who never sold any of the gold they purchased
> in the 70s as back then they understood the collapse of the
> fiat currency was underway regardless of how many years it
> would take - even if they bought at the top.  I know I was
> in my early twenties, and I understood that back then - that
> gold is to be hoarded and exchanged as the currency finishes
> collapsing.
>  
> Fekete explains hoarding was a long drawn out event in the
> W. Roman Empire, and in modern times we have a similar event
> going on.
>  
> Backwardation in part is telling us that fewer and fewer
> people hoarding gold/silver today are willing to exchange
> it for paper dollars or for those "clipped" silver
> dimes and quarters that are no longer 100% silver.
>  
> Currently the troops are still accepting below minimum
> wage(?) paid in the form of paper fiat currency.   If the
> government doesn't increase their wages in sync with
> hyperinflation - how long will they stay?  How can they
> feed their families?  
>  
> There is no doubt in my mind that the US Gov't is, and
> has been for a long time, bankrupt.  So far the US is still
> paying debts by creating more and more currency out of thin
> air.  How long people will continue to accept that form of
> payment is another story.  I do believe we're headed
> for a monetary hyperinflation phase, where the currency
> collapses in the end.  (And not just the US, I believe a
> lot of G-20s are going the same way.)
>  
> What happens after that? 
>  
> >From what I've read, hyperinflations do not end
> until governments stop issuing the collapsing currency,
> issue a new currency, and promise not to debase it by
> increasing the number of units circulating.  It won't
> work until there is CONfidence that the government will stop
> the clipping.  I wish I knew if that typically happens
> overnight, or if the next new currency typically gets
> clipped again after a short period of CONfidence. The gold
> bugs may hoard their gold, even if it means passing to the
> next generation... meaning there is no centralized price
> mechanism.
>  
> How DO people value gold outside of a government issued
> money system - which in part is what I interpreted James to
> be talking about.  You can't eat it, but you can use it
> to trade without others willing to accept it, but what is
> the pricing mechanism?  
>  
> If the dollar collapses and people are still willing to
> trade gold for say Euro, you have a pricing mechanism.  If
> the Euro collapses, and the Canadian or NZDollar still
> sports a gold price, you can still exchange it, and so on. 
> After that, how do people come to a consensus of value - of
> fair value?  If no one is willing to trade for ANY fiat
> currency, then what?
>  
> The way I read Fekete's article is that during the dark
> ages there was a period where you could not count on
> gold/silver being used as a medium of exchange.  It may
> have been because there was no way to determine value (i.e.
> how many grams would be worth a dozen eggs, etc.)  He
> states that gold/silver went into hiding never to re-emerge
> during the lifetime of the original holders.  I assume from
> that that it was passed on from generation to generation
> until such time as there was a reason to swap out into a
> different kind of currency or other medium of exchange (as
> there have been many besides gold/silver).  Of course back
> then, computers and modern transportation did not exist to
> facilitate world wide trading.
>  
> In a Dark Ages II type scenario, you can't eat gold,
> can't wear it, can't heat with it.  However, you
> can pass it to the next generation clandestinely and avoid
> paying taxes to theiving governments.  LOL.  
>  
> I think Fekete is saying that gold/silver retains value as
> a more wide-spread medium of exchange (whether in physical
> metal or metal backed currency) only when their is
> wide-spread confidence in the governing body.  
>  
> Under a chaotic government(s) situation - and limited
> person to person gold/silver exchange - a large
> landowner/farmer MIGHT be willing to exchange his excess
> food production for some gold IF his goal is to acquire gold
> for his heirs or for a time when the governing body can be
> trusted again.  However, a small farmer barely able to
> produce above his own needs is not going to swap his one
> extra chicken for gold if he needs a horse shoe from the
> blacksmith for his plow, and the blacksmith doesn't want
> gold but needs to eat.
>  
> I don't know if the US or the world will decsend into
> another Dark Ages; I don't discount the possibility -
> but I don't have any way of determining how far out
> along the fat tail of a bell curve the possibility of a
> Dark Ages II needs to go.  Of if we will just return to a
> more agrarian society, or what.
>  
> One point that Fekete makes is that he foresees a time when
> there would be no sellers of gold/silver.  I would have to
> think about that for a long time.  But my first thought, is
> maybe initially but, I think in time some would be willing
> to sell as a last resort (or not knowing the value) to those
> who have excess production, who see gold/silver as a future
> generation(s) way of preserving wealth.  
>  
> On your point, "Anyone who now believes things will
> become 'that bad', should be out with ropes, rifles,
> pitchforks, and whatever else will kill and maim those in
> power who would allow such a thing to occur."
>  
> True, but in truth WHO allowed it to occur?  WE DID. WE
> who did not rise up in anger at the debasement of the
> currency and put a stop to it.  WE who understood the
> consequences and failed to teach values of exchange and of
> production and self-preservation through our own efforts. 
> WE DO deserve to get a new Dark Ages, not because we are
> sitting and waiting for it, but because we failed to
> recognize the cause of it and failed to prevent it, even
> with all of our accumulated knowledge of thousands of years.
>  
> Although ropes and guillotines won't be needed -
> starvation and disease will take care of it.
>  
> Yes, it echoes of Ayn Rand, but to me it is the much more
> accurate to blame "we" than those in power.
>  
>  
> PS CAPS are not "yelling",,,, but meant to
> emphasis on paper the words I would emphasis in person.
> 
> 
> --- On Tue, 12/23/08, bobf <bobford79 AT yahoo.com>
> wrote:
> 
> From: bobf <bobford79 AT yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: [Homestead] More on Gold
> To: cayadopi AT yahoo.com, homestead AT lists.ibiblio.org
> Date: Tuesday, December 23, 2008, 11:04 AM
> 
> Leslie, I believe you mis-read Dr. Fekets's intenet
> where he draws upon
> historical anaylis.  He wrote:
> 
> "............... causation goes in the opposite
> direction. The
> disappearance of gold and silver coins as a means of
> exchange was a
> long-drawn-out, cumulative event. In the end, no one was
> willing to exchange
> gold and silver coins for the debased coinage of the
> empire. At that point the
> empire was bankrupt; it could no longer pay the troops that
> defended its
> boundaries against the barbarians threatening with
> invasion.'......."
> 
> That is to say, that the gold and silver still retained
> their value , in his
> opinion; but ttheir was nothing left in the fiat system
> worth the trade value of
> the gold and silver.  And, if we are sitting and waiting
> for a return of the
> "dark ages", we desrve whatever we get, anyway. 
> Anyone who now
> believes things will become 'that bad', should be
> out with ropes,
> rifles, pitchforks, and whatever else will kill and maim
> those in power who
> would allow such a thing to occur.  Most of us think we are
> witnessing a
> calamity, but not anything close to a repeat of the
> 'Dark Ages'.
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --- On Tue, 12/23/08, Leslie <cayadopi AT yahoo.com>
> wrote:
> 
> 
> >  
> > Fekete writes an update on the outlook for the value
> of
> > gold.  This one is quite interesting as he talks
> about what
> > happened to gold/silver during/after the collapse of
> the
> > Western Roman Empire and the parallels to today. 
> History
> > supports James' points a couple weeks ago that
> > gold/silvere will have zero value - the pricing
> mechanism
> > will be gone.
> >  
> > Fekete warns that gold in backwardation in Dec 2008,
> is
> > warning, is a premonition of what is coming down the
> road. 
> > He believes there will be repeated instances of
> > backwardation, each more severe than the preceeding,
> as
> > gold/silver go into hiding.  Hyperinflation and
> ultimately
> > the collapse of the monetary system - a point where
> > gold/silver will not have a value either, because
> those
> > hoarding will not be willing to part with it, until
> such
> > time as confidence in a fiat currency returns.  
> >  
> > After the collapse of the Roman Empire we went into
> the
> > Dark Ages, where payment in gold/silver could not be
> taken
> > for granted - gold/silver went into hiding never to
> > re-emerge during the lifetime of the original
> holders. 
> > Fekete warns that the disappearance of gold/silver is
> > ominous.
> >  
> >
> 
> 
>       
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> 
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