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[Tvoivozhd <tvoivozd AT infionline.net>]

Walter H.Jeffries wrote:

> On Sep 4, 2004, at 3:40 PM, Tvoivozhd wrote:
>
> > There are only two ways to really stop guerrillas, the Genghis Khan 
> > and Stalin quick way or for the desperate a thirty-year properly 
> > funded program of education coupled with a thirty-year properly 
> > funded program of bringing them as employees and entrepreneurs into 
> > the greater economy.  People making a good living don't deviate from 
> > it to become guerrillas.

Tvoivozhd---let me repeat, people making a good living do not deviate 
from it to hazard their lives or the lives of their families in domestic 
or foreigh revolutions.  They can be induced to protect what they've got 
if it is under attack or appears to be threatened with attack.

> The problem with this theory is that in the mid-east (and other areas 
> throughout history) there are a large number of young men who have 
> education and money but go into the jihad. This was the same in the 
> Christian "Holy Wars", the Crusades. From what I can glean they tend 
> to be unmarried and have no children, claim boredom and are said to be 
> searching for 'meaning'. This fits with the insurance and banking 
> industry's view that married people with children are far more stable 
> and reliable (serfs?).




tvoivozhd---education yes, money no---Osama Bin Laden was a glaring 
exception.  The education of young Saudis (1,500,000 of them) has no 
practical purpose and leaves them hopeless, nowhere to go because said 
Wah-habi education is intended to make them Imams in a country already 
over-supplied with Imams.  Other than the deluded, brainwashed children 
who couldn't possibly fight, the backbone of the Crusaders were second 
sons, educated, mostly well-armed, but penniless and looking for loot to 
enable them to return to their homeland as respectable, wealthy citizens 
like their first-born brothers who had
sole claim to their father's estate.. 

Eric Hoffer, who studied mob psychology intently and with great insight 
, observed that the hot core of revolutionary zeal is the rich and 
middle class citizen RECENTLY DISPOSSESSED  As in the French Revolution, 
the poor go along for the ride, or strictly entertainment purposes, but 
do not initiate rebellions or contribute more than bodies to a 
revolutionary movement.

> A portion of the above problem is that the religion and clerics push 
> the martyr complex and the us vs them view that anyone outside their 
> sect of their religion is a heathen. They offer no compromise, just 
> subjection. When any group gets like that they tend to be difficult to 
> live along side of since they have no tolerance for differences.


tvoivozhd---the worst thing that ever happened to humans is 
institutionalized religion that offers to priests and politicians 
enormous  amounts of money, power and prestige---free of elections or 
any other elements of democracy.  The Virtual World constructed by 
religious scam artists can take any form they wish, and looks a lot 
prettier than the real world which everyone can visually verify.  The 
Virtual World cannot be verified  but the mindless and anxious-to-be 
deceived gullible suppress normal survival instincts to blind themselves 
to this obvious defect in the heavy-duty, industrial-strength religion 
industry.. 

> One thing to remember about Chechnya is that it is a portion of the 
> populace that is pushing the guerrilla war against Russia. There are 
> Chechnyians who do not want to separate from Russia and most of all do 
> not want to live under the guerrillas' rule even if they did separate.


tvoivozhd---I do not subscribe to the notion of an "innocent civilian 
populace".  The Chechen civilian populace provides cover and support to 
Chechen guerrillas, including those who supposedly don't want to live 
under a guerrilla-dominated Chechen government.  Do these supposed 
dissidents spend any time or energy to relaying to the Russians the 
names, addresses, meeting places, weaponry and intended targets of 
Chechen guerillas?  Hell no.

An "innocent civilian populace" in WWII, manned the factories that 
produced tanks, trucks, engines, aircraft, artillery, machine guns,  
battleships, cruisers, destroyers, submarines and all the other 
necessities of the armed forces without which the latter cannot survive 
for more than a few weeks or months at most.  There are no innocent 
civilians in wartime, every person makes theit contribution to a war 
effort.  Everyone that makes a contribution to the war effort of the 
armed forces trying to kill you is not merely a justifiable target, but 
a high priority one.  You can kill an army or its civilian suppliers, 
either is equally effective.

The inhabitants of razed Carthage, burnt-out Dresden posed no 
subsequently guerrilla threat to anybody.  If the carnage is complete, 
survivors, if any, have no stomach for further conflict.

(snip)

> . From their historic actions they intended to kill all the hostages 
> anyways. There should be no negotiations with people like that - it 
> will only encourage them.


Tvoivozhd---as a Group Commander in the Air Force death and destruction 
business , I never saw any reason for negotiation  as Mao put it, his 
Communist soldiers "swimming in a civilian sea", or entire nations.  No 
wavering, no hesitation, no negotiation and a rain of fire did just fine 
in Germany and areas under Japanese occupation.

> Compassion and helping people lift themselves up is good but it 
> doesn't always work. If you study history you'll find that the worst 
> trouble makers aren't the most oppressed but actually quite 
> privileged. We spend an enormous amount on helping people but that 
> alone will not stop deviants like these hostage takers or al-Qaida.


Tvoivozhd---compassion is a poor engine for reform---it quickly burns 
out and relapses to the status quo.  Self interest is more reliable.  If 
the poor were perceived as a potential, but undeveloped market, you 
would have the business class clamoring to exploit a new opportunity.  
However our own poor within our own borders are perceived as worthless, 
indolent creatures upon which it is useless to expend money except for 
maintenance via soup kitchens and to some extent, temporary shelters.  
Grameen banks have proven this concept to be faulty, but we do not have 
Grameen banks here or in poor Arab sections of rich Arab nations. 

The U.S. city poor were once fully employed and reasonably well-paid 
factory labor.  The factory owners left, leaving an economic wasteland.  
Neither the politicians or economic elite lifted a finger to bring in 
new industry when it was relatively cheap to do so.  They will spend 
billions, across time trillions of dollars to remedy constantly 
recurring hurricane damage, but not a cent to rebuild bombed-out 
economies of big cities.