Kata Markon

["L. J. Swain" <larry.swain AT wmich.edu>]

JFAlward AT aol.com wrote:
> 
> In a message dated 10/21/02 1:09:12 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
> larry.swain AT wmich.edu writes:
> 
> << So when Jesus says, Watch and Pray so that you may not enter
> testing.....can you explain just how watching and praying PREVENTS the
> "temptation" to sleep?  >>
> 
> You appear to have made my argument into a straw man, Larry.  I do not claim
> that Jesus asked the disciples to "watch" in order to do anything. 

a) No, the text does.  You see, that "so that not" bit is called by us
humble grammarians a negative purpose clause....it is marked in Greek
(and Latin) by the use of a specific construction.  The main verbs of
the sentence are imperative.  Thus, the sentence is: Do A and Do B so
that you not do C.  The text itself demands that one claim that Jesus
COMMANDED the disciples to "watch" and "pray"in order to NOT do
something.
b) I certainly didn't turn your argument into a straw man, Joe.  You
read the text, if I understand you correctly, as a warning to watch and
pray that the disciples not be tempted to sleep.  I simply looked at the
text and asked you make sense of this: how does watching and praying
help prevent sleep?



 Watching
> to prevent temptation was the furthest thing from my mind, and from Mark's.

a) I'm delighted to know that we have an authoritative representitive
for the gospel writer on the list.  The rest of us can pack up and go
home now.
b) Sarcasm aside, "temptation" can not have been that far from Mark's
mind since in the verse under consideration he used the word PEIRASMOS,
unless of course you want to attempt to argue that the word meant
something else entirely, an interesting argument I'm sure.


> The disciples were supposed to "watch" for Jesus' coming betrayer, who might
> come suddenly without warning, just as the servants were supposed to watch
> for the master might return without warning in the sleeping servants parable
> in Mark 13:32-37.  Watching would play absolutely no role in preventing the
> disciples from succumbing to temptation to close their eyes.
> 
a) where in the preceding text does Jesus or anyone else mention the
"coming betrayer" since Mark NEVER RECORDS JUDAS' DEPARTURE FROM THE
SCENE nor his identification as the betrayer before this point.  So I'm
not certain where you arrive at the disciples watching for the coming
betrayer.
b) If Jesus were so concerned about avoiding his betrayer that he sets
watchers, why not avoid the betrayer altogether and leave town?  "Not my
will but thine" So I doubt that the disciples were watching out for
Judas and gang.
c) once again you're overlooking the basics of the text: Watch and Pray
SO THAT YOU NOT ENTER UPON A TEST....
its an expression of PURPOSE.  Thus, if the disciples are the ones being
tested by the body in your case, how is watching and praying going to
prevent that test?



> Your second misrepresentation of my argument concerns praying to avoid
> succumbing to the temptation to sleep.  You want me to have argued that 
> Jesus
> wanted them to pray not to have the temptation to sleep, but that would be
> silly.  The temptation to sleep would naturally be present, and there is no
> problem with having the temptation to sleep. The problem comes in
> surrendering oneself to that temptation.  Jesus wanted the disciples to pray
> that God give them the strength to avoid *succumbing* to the 
> temptation--pray
> to avoid the temptation to close their eyes and sleep.

a) but this isn't what the text says.  The text says, Watch and Pray so
that you enter not on a test, NOT Watch and Pray for strength to resist
temptation nor Watch and Pray so that you be not tested.  
b) No, I didn't misrepresent your argument.  Isn't succumbing to
temptation the opposite way of saying they didn't resist temptation? 
And if so, how could my statement that "Watching and Praying may help
resist the temptation to sleep (i. e. Joe, not succumbing to sleep), but
will not prevent the temptation." Once again we come back to the fact
that this is a purpose clause, Watch, pray, SO THAT YOU DO NOT ENTER A
TEST, it does not mean "so that you will have the strength not to
succumb."  That reading just isn't in the cards.  That is called
eisegesis, and I wanted to think hat you would not engage in such a
thing, but here you are telling us that in fact you have.

Regardez, 

Larry Swain